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Amen, brother. 
Jeremy Falcon
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Inside every old person is a young person, wondering: "what the hell happened?"
(who the hell invented mirrors?)
>64
It’s weird being the same age as old people. Live every day like it is your last; one day, it will be.
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As the old saying goes: One has to grow old, growing up is optional.
>64
It’s weird being the same age as old people. Live every day like it is your last; one day, it will be.
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I just have to throw my hands up and admit you're not wrong.
Doesn't CP collect birthdates in our profiles? It would be interesting to see what the median age on CP is...and whether new subscribers are bringing it up, or down, over time...
Speaking of which, CP has been at 15.9M subscribers forever it seems. Are we ever going to see it reach 16M?
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dandy72 wrote: It would be interesting to see what the median age on CP
Just make sure our age doesn't cause an overflow. 
dandy72 wrote: Speaking of which, CP has been at 15.9M subscribers forever it seems. Are we ever going to see it reach 16M?
I tend to shy away from talking about this stuff these days; a lot of peeps here are too emotional about everything it seems. The less success a person has, the more emotional they are about crap. Anyway, IMO with the exception of the AI stuff, CP has gotten stagnant. I know for a fact the website design is a relic of the past, for instance. And yet, those with zero design experience will get upset when I say that.
This entire site was built around a MS centric stack. That's by and large the user base. That worked in the 90s when MS was one of the only serious players in the game, but these days we got lot dev going on that has nothing to do with MS... not the least of which is Rust. So, IMO unless CP adapts and stays fresh and new, it's always gonna be the old timers here just living in the past.
Nothing against MS development btw. I'm just a realist who pays attention. Which apparently, makes others upset. But, if you think about all the times CP has went down and why nothing was ever put in place to start preventing outages over the years... it's like they gave up. Hell, even their URL scheme is from the 90s. But, you can't say that without people getting emotional.
I ain't gonna make any friends today.
Edit: Peeps will always say "we don't have time" but I've managed enough folks to know that's the number one excuse for anything. If it takes 20 years to do something, time isn't the issue. It's a matter of priority, drive, and/or how much you care.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 30-Aug-24 12:02pm.
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Seems to me that what stack CP is built on bears little relationship to the content it hosts. I see more non-MS-related topics than MS-related in the General Programming section, for instance.
That said, I can see it is built on ASP.NET Framework. It might be good to rebuild the front end on Blazor or something. Someday, right?
There are no solutions, only trade-offs. - Thomas Sowell
A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
- Calvin (Bill Watterson, Calvin & Hobbes)
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TNCaver wrote: Seems to me that what stack CP is built on bears little relationship to the content it hosts.
Well, I guess that was ambiguous. What I meant was it was built around the MS stack for the content.
TNCaver wrote: I see more non-MS-related topics than MS-related in the General Programming section, for instance.
That's great if so. I mean even MS is embracing non-MS things these days. Times are changing. But, that's just one board that doesn't get much traction. Some of these boards will go a month with no action, for instance.
TNCaver wrote: That said, I can see it is built on ASP.NET Framework. It might be good to rebuild the front end on Blazor or something. Someday, right?
It's less about the tech and more about how you use the tech. You can modernize the site with the same tech stack (non-content this time). I mean sure, that would be cool, but not a hard requirement to show the site some love.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: It's less about the tech and more about how you use the tech. You can modernize the site with the same tech stack (non-content this time).
True. I don't know if modernizing the look and feel will attract new members, if that's what you mean. If not, what other kinds of modernizing would you do?
There are no solutions, only trade-offs. - Thomas Sowell
A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
- Calvin (Bill Watterson, Calvin & Hobbes)
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I'm not gonna consult or work for free. But, I will give you one tip, know your target audience. And modernizing doesn't mean flying unicorns, etc. You can disagree, that's cool I guess. But, at this point, I gotta assume your picture of modernizing is something akin to Rainbow Brite playing a harp in a sprite embedded in a spreadsheet.
I would love to know your credentials. Like, if you never worked on a site with millions of hits. It would make this chat go a lot smoother and I'll be much less off-put. There are few real teachers in life and mostly fake ones with no experience just yapping. Just the cold, hard truth of life. Winners listen to real teachers, not fake ones. Like, nobody would ask a garbage man his thoughts on correct heart surgery protocols and take it seriously.
I realize I sound like a douche, but I've spent my entire life with people "disagreeing" online who have done nothing in their life, don't even brush their teeth, are total losers when you meet them in person, etc. But online, everyone's a Greek god or pretend to know everything. So, I'm old, cranky, and jaded. 
I've simply given examples of how the site has been neglected. You should be able to extrapolate from that a pretty accurate hypothesis that if 2 or 3 areas are neglected then certainly more are.
If you're looking for a step-by-step guide, you can't afford me.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 30-Aug-24 17:57pm.
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Whoa! I'm not criticizing anything or anyone, and I sincerely apologize if that's how I came across. I was just exploring ideas, not challenging yours.
For what it's worth, yes, I built and maintained several iterations of the very public website of a PRO in Nashville for nearly 20 years. I left 5 years ago and no longer remember the analytics (I'm old, cranky, and forgetful of unimportant facts) but I'm sure it didn't get millions of hits per day, or month. Maybe in a year. Are my credentials not listed in my CP profile? I don't remember (there's that memory issue again), I'll have to check. Anyway, I've been developing software (server-side, desktop apps, websites, whatever) for about 38 years.
My definition of modernizing re: websites is not just looks, it's improving the UI to make it easier for the user to use, it's the tech and security and behind it, it's a lot of things, probably a lot of the same ways you define it.
There are no solutions, only trade-offs. - Thomas Sowell
A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
- Calvin (Bill Watterson, Calvin & Hobbes)
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Oh, and just so you know I'm not being a total hypocrite while I'm being a douche... I have directly worked on sites with millions of hits more than once. I've worked very closely with marketing teams that worked with sites getting millions of hits... more than once.
Now, that doesn't mean all my thoughts are gold or correct... far from it. It simply means I expect peeps to have done the same if we're gonna chat about it because I'm soooooooo tired of arguing online. Been dealing with that my whole life. That's all.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: ... CP has gotten stagnant. I know for a fact the website design is a relic of the past, for instance.
For the most part, so are we.
A colleague of mine celebrated his son's Bar Mitzvah. Because he and his wife are serious nerds, they didn't number the tables in the hall but gave them CPU names, including some really ancient ones. I remarked to him that it's frightening that not only do I recognize all of the CPUs, but that I've programmed most of them. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: For the most part, so are we.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote: they didn't number the tables in the hall but gave them CPU names
That's cool actually. In a world of "normal" dare to be different ya know.
Daniel Pfeffer wrote: I remarked to him that it's frightening that not only do I recognize all of the CPUs, but that I've programmed most of them.
1,000% agree. From a philosophical perspective though, I'll just say that change is inevitable, so you either roll with it or become a relic in a time that no longer exists. Not saying all change is good or warranted either (like these chemicals in our food now), but things do get stale and stagnant if you just stop because that ball will keep on rolling.
From a philosophical perspective again, IMO a healthy undertaking needs two things, the wisdom and experience of the elderly plus the vibrant vitality of the youth. The young want novelty but can be naive and inexperienced. The elderly has years of wisdom but well... stopped living.
Jeremy Falcon
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I get what you're saying, but I think at this point CP has its own identity - those here know what they're getting...if it suddenly tried to become everything to everyone, it just wouldn't be the same anymore.
I say, let other sites do that. They can't be all that hard to find.
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That's how things die out man. The older peeps refusing to change will eventually pass. Maybe their brain is old and malnourished and it's harder for them to learn (usually the case). But, it 100% goes against the circle of life, which means it'll eventually have to succumb to it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Maybe that's how it ought to be. Not everything needs to be cutting edge.
I'm perhaps the last one who should make this specific analogy, but I like to go to the pub I'm accustomed to going to, and have a drink and trade stories with my old war buddies. If it turned into a hip and trendy place, I'd stop going.
To be frank I spend more time here in the lounge than reading articles. [shrug].
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I do agree in not doing change for change's sake, but I also agree people can just be set in their ways. There have been legit improvements in the web that the peeps here seem to just hate because it's new.
For instance, you cannot convince me we should still be making sites that look like this....
https://assets.entrepreneur.com/content/3x2/2000/20190211151651-captain-marvel.jpeg
Oh man, that visit counter.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: For instance, you cannot convince me we should still be making sites that look like this....
Yeah there's a blast from the past...and not the good type.
CP was very clearly designed for a PC with a mouse and keyboard and a big monitor, not a tablet, or phone, touch, etc.
If Chris feels like he should invest the resources to enable people to look up technical articles while out on the road, that's for him to decide...it just won't make the site any more functional for me.
The trend that I do dislike - and it very much originates from phones - is the lack of consistency, which also leads to problems with discoverability. To me that's always a sign of things evolving (and I applaud the attempt) but nobody still agrees as to what things are evolving into.
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People don't know what they don't know. Without even knowing what the modern stuff is, people will dismiss it. Which is why I was so dismissive in a different sub-thread. I already knew I was just looking to be argued against.
And it's like folks get way too emotional about this stuff IMO. Here we are going on days later because people cannot accept the truth.
I could list a thousand things this site needs, but to be frank I'm sick and tired of arguing with people on CP, so I don't care that much anymore.
I know in the past, people just assumed I hate CP because I say it needs some love. Like, you can still like people and also recognize something has been neglected.
It's the employer vs the employee mentally. Some employees will find any excuse not to work while employers want to keep up with the times (to an extent... the "times" differs per market). And yes, there are devs who do want to keep up with the times too, but they're not on CP. CP is filled with old people that just stopped, at least the lounge anyway.
And, I doubt anything I say on a message board is gonna make anyone look inward and think, gee maybe it's ok for a web expert to say this site is getting stale. But nope...
I can tell you one thing though, I sure didn't get my web expertise on CP.
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: I can tell you one thing though, I sure didn't get my web expertise on CP.
That's pure gold, right there.
You're not wrong. Over the last 20+ years, CP's done a great job teaching Windows developers how to go about everything related to Windows desktop development, but articles that deviate from the established formula stand out and stick out like a sore thumb, like they don't belong. I mean, I might enjoy reading them and learn something I knew nothing about, but at the same time, I keep thinking to myself, this is great, but what is this even doing on CP?
Maybe I've missed it, but CP needs to restate its intended scope (or goals). I'm not sure I've ever read a mission statement somewhere...
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Agreed. After I got of a planning call for a College of Commissioner Science (BSA training) I asked my wife "when did I become one of the elders in this council?"
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I was writing a response to a thread and talking about one of the first programming books I ever read (after C++ For Dummies), Programming Windows 3.1 by Charles Petzold.
I discovered you can read the entire book at archive.org: Programming Windows 3.1 : Petzold, Charles, 1953- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive[^]
Before you start reading you should know about the hardware requirements as listed by the author:
To best run Windows and the development tools, you need the following hardware:
■ An IBM personal computer (or compatible) based on the Intel 80386 microprocessor with a hard disk and 4 megabytes (MB) of memory running MS-DOS 3-3 or later.
■ A graphics display and video board, preferably compatible with the IBM VGA (Video Graphics Array) or better.
■ A mouse. Although a mouse is generally optional for most Windows programs, some of the programs in this book require one.
Not everyone had a mouse.
It's such a stroll down memory lane.
Also, he mentions:
from Preface The chapter on text and fonts focuses on another Windows 3.1 enhancement — the introduction of the scalable outline font technology known as TrueType.
Because you've probably never heard of TrueType fonts (TTF). 
#### UPDATE : Get Source Code #######
If you want the source code for the examples in the book you can download them via this link: https://charlespetzold.com/src/ProgWin31.zip[^]
modified 29-Aug-24 10:03am.
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I still have my dead-tree version of this book and of its sequel, Programming Windows 95. But then, I'm a packrat (aka hoarder).
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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ditto for me, Daniel. and not just books.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
modified 30-Aug-24 0:45am.
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