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That's the problem I've always had with agile. Like you, in the 36 years I was active I never had 100% access to a customer. I could call occasionally to ask questions and clarify requirements but they were generally busy doing their daily work. They had limited time for me. Once in a great while they'd come to the office but usually for training after development or for requirements/kickoff meetings beforehand. But sitting in on Dev meetings or generally being there during development - never, not once. Not even during my last 3 or 4 years when my company was actually trying to switch over to agile scrum. They had their own jobs to do and those jobs ranged much further than just running our software. Heck, we couldn't even get them to install beta versions to tell us what they liked or hated no matter how much we begged.
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Yep! That's exactly what my experience too.
This part of Agile (always having a user present) seems totally fake to me for "normal" applications.
I'm sure there are special cases like Nuclear Reactor software or something, but other software it just doesn't happen.
FreedMalloc wrote: Heck, we couldn't even get them to install beta versions to tell us what they liked or hated no matter how much we begged.
Yep, all of this is really just an intrusion to them. They don't want to play with your software which isn't the actual software they need to use to do their job.
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raddevus wrote: POLL: The Big Question
Have you ever been on a project where the user actually sits in the same room (or even building) as the developers?
Many applications in our company (and many (most?) other financial institutions) are built by people sitting on the trading floor with the traders who are using the application. When an application doesn't work, feedback is instant. So in that sense I guess that aspect of agile is being adhered to.
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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
I worked at a large mortgage company with 100s of branches and they attempted to re-write the Loan Origination system and they did not follow that idea.
They worked on it for about 5 years and spent $75 million then gave up and used none of the code.
It was crazy!
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We have a sort of multi tiered version, in so far as the people building the applications are actually on the trading floor, but they are themselves users of the components they use to build those applications, and the components are built by a different team who are not actually on the trading floor (it's often noisy) but very close by, so the application builders can liaise directly.
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My experience with stuff like agile and scrum is that people simply don't want it.
Developers do, management think they do, but users often don't.
One mistake is that people still think of it as a development methodology and so only developers get training.
However, it asks a lot from users as well!
And those users usually do not get the same training.
They just want to tell us what they want, preferably in one no too long sitting, and get exactly what they asked for (or thought they asked for anyway).
And it makes sense because to them the software isn't all that complicated or they only use a small portion of the software.
They surely don't want to see incomplete software every two weeks.
Releasing new functionality every two weeks is a myth, users want the full product or nothing at all.
Lots of users can't even see past incomplete software and it only makes them resist change ("see, you can't even do X with the new software!")
For all those reasons I prefer a more waterfall approach, it's simply more user friendly.
I'm not fleshing out all the details up front and we do have some meetings with users and there are regular meetings with analysts, but it'd be a stretch to call it scrum or even agile.
We're agile in the sense that we can always make changes even during development, we can shift priorities, we can do all that, but I'd still call it more waterfall than agile (as a methodology).
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Totally agree with your entire post. 100%!!
So many things you said are so true.
Sander Rossel wrote: One mistake is that people still think of it as a development methodology and so only developers get training.
If you listen to the actual Agile people you discover that it actually affects the entire organization -- and if it doesn't then you are not actually Agile.
Sander Rossel wrote: They surely don't want to see incomplete software every two weeks.
Exactly! Users are annoyed by having to see partial software that doesn't do the parts they want anyways. They won't even look at it. Many times they won't even run the app once.
That has been my experience in every company I've worked in over 33 years.
Even as "Agile" has come along, it's really been waterfall with some agile ideas.
Thanks for sharing, really appreciate it, and very interesting to hear someone else say those things too.
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No updates in "The Insider News" for over a week.
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Agreed, I'm missing my daily dose of snappy remarks. Hope all is well??
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I had almost decided to come make a post inquiring about how one immigrates and acquires the same vacation plan.
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And all is right with the world! The daily news is back baby!!
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Where? I don't see a Daily Insider? I see a Daily Build from yesterday though.
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
I’m begging you for the benefit of everyone, don’t be STUPID.
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Over a week is a good vacation plan? Am I too European to get this?
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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den2k88 wrote: Am I too European to get this?
Yes we are
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Wordle 1,178 4/6*
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Wordle 1,178 5/6
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Wordle 1,178 3/6*
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"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Wordle 1,178 4/6*
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Wordle 1,178 5/6
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Second time in my life and second time in a row that I get an anagram as penultimate choice.
GCS/GE d--(d) s-/+ a C+++ U+++ P-- L+@ E-- W+++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
The shortest horror story: On Error Resume Next
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Wordle 1,178 6/6
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Ok, I have had my coffee, so you can all come out now!
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Wordle 1,178 3/6*
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Happiness will never come to those who fail to appreciate what they already have. -Anon
And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music. -Frederick Nietzsche
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"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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My UPS went out and I need to get another on. There are so many different flavors. I'm not really sure what I need. What I'm really looking for is something to kick in & keep me powered if the power goes out.
I'm looking on Amazon and I see many different ones with XXX Amps & xxx Volts. Some say 'Surge & Battery', and some say just 'Surge'. Some are a mix of both. Some have a 'data line' option.
What's the basic idea? What do I really need?
In theory, theory and practice are the same. But in practice, they never are.”
If it's not broken, fix it until it is.
Everything makes sense in someone's mind.
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