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Eddy Vluggen wrote: If it didn't look different, people would not buy it. The discussion is as old as Office
Those are two very good points.
But then :
1. who buys it? I got it free... didn't we all?
2. I'm older than Office.
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raddevus wrote: 1. who buys it? I got it free... didn't we all?
The succes of Windows and Office are to blame on software-piracy. That's what got it that market-share.
raddevus wrote: 2. I'm older than Office.
So, you read the discussions on the new buttons that Office 95 introduced, the discussion on the new UI of Office 97, the discussion on how great the new menu-bar is for productivity.
The "consistency" thing that was so touted to save money has long been abandoned by marketing.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: The succes of Windows and Office are to blame on software-piracy.
I meant free licensed upgrade.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: you read the discussions on the new buttons that Office 95
I've read everything from all times that has ever been published anywhere. I told you, I'm old.
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Software piracy is a different animal.
Most of the "I got mine free" is due to the package being pre-installed when the machine is purchased. Many companies order their Win 10 machines with Office pre-installed by the vendor at the request of the purchaser.
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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Jalapeno Bob wrote: Most of the "I got mine free" is due to the package being pre-installed when the machine is purchased. Many companies order their Win 10 machines with Office pre-installed by the vendor at the request of the purchaser.
Most of the companies I worked for used pirated installations for Win95 and ME.
Without piracy, MS would not have been a success.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Most of the companies I worked for used pirated installations for Win95 and ME.
Still on Win95 and ME???? 
Talk about security issues!! 
You have GOT to be kidding!!
__________________
Lord, grant me the serenity to accept that there are some things I just can’t keep up with, the determination to keep up with the things I must keep up with, and the wisdom to find a good RSS feed from someone who keeps up with what I’d like to, but just don’t have the damn bandwidth to handle right now.
© 2009, Rex Hammock
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"Used", so not "still".
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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I can't fathom the concept of people buying it because it looks different. I think they might have more sales if they provided the option to look like it used on W7 and XP. Their GUIs have been steadily getting worse since then. I have not talked to anyone who prefers the appearance of W10 to any older ones.
For me personally, there is not a single compelling reason for me to use W10. Not a single one. That is, other than in some cases I have no other options. If I did I certainly would not be using it. Thankfully, my development boxes at work still use W7 and I have zero interest in moving any of them from it. We do not install ANY new systems using W10 and that is going to continue for the foreseeable future.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Rick York wrote: I can't fathom the concept of people buying it because it looks different.
I can't fathom managment either, but that's how it works.
Rick York wrote: I think they might have more sales if they provided the option to look like it used on W7 and XP.
If people do not see changes, they're not there.
Rick York wrote: We do not install ANY new systems using W10 and that is going to continue for the foreseeable future.
Unless you are moving to Linux, that is a really bad idea 
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Unless you are moving to Linux, that is a really bad idea
Not for us. Moving to W10 would be an even worse idea and that is why we have not and will not any time soon. Our machines don't see any public networks so security is not a major concern. We can't even access the internet with them and that's just as well.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Rick York wrote: so security is not a major concern
Gimme a dime for each time I hear that.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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raddevus wrote: I say this because I'm a WinDev. However, as I move more toward mobile Android and iOS Native dev (not Xamarin) I see that if I moved entirely over I could move to a Linux desktop
Over the years I have more than once asked myself if I should move to Linux rather than bearing MicroSoft moving my cheese over and over again. But always I decided that ultimately it wasn't worth the effort.
Since Windows 8 I'm closer to making that decision than ever. I am still using Windows 7 for as long as I can on as many machines as I can. But if I'm forced to move away from W7, it's more than likely that I will not move to any Windows version any more.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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Cheese moving is a problem on Linux too. viz: sys5->systemd, lilo->grub, ifconfig/netstat/route -> ip and so on.
Speaking as a mostly Linux user and developer, Win10 is an itty-bitty incremental improvement over Win7, which in itself was a mostly significant improvement over XP, but Win8 was a definite retrograde step. But then I never use Metro. And Vista - never got the chance to use it .
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I'm not speaking of files or folders being moved, but entire program structures, functionality and more:
1. Settings: the Settings App does not include all the settings from Windows 7 Control Panel, separated related settings to different dialog windows, and sometimes changing a setting in one place causes silent changes of settings in other places.  Thankfully, Control Panel is still there.
2. Windows updates notoriously reset some of the system settings to the default (or new defaults) silently, forcing you to redo your system configuration over and over again, just in case. 
3. Windows Explorer Libraries: While the concept is very nice, the default installation so overloads the tree part of the window with predefined libraries and favorites that you have a hard time finding the actual file system! ( What is the point of 'favorites' if MS defines them for you?  )
4. Windows Explorer URL: Rather than showing a file path as it used to, now we get to see an 'URL'(?) that does not correspond to any real file path. Clicking into the box helps, but even then chances are that the apparent file path is not an actual file path at all - thanks to 'Libraries'.  . As a result, when you try to locate files on on another computer in the LAN you can no longer rely on the path shown in Windows Explorer of the original computer, and you end up searching for these files much longer than you used to in earlier Windows versions. 
5. Securing your privacy: while parts of Windows telemetry are already present on W7, disabling it on W10 has become near impossible: It takes advanced guides to find all of the relevant settings, and every couple of months you need to recheck these guides because the settings were moved or split up, or newly introduced defaults need to be changed, too. 
There are more changes to hate, but thankfully most can be avoided: Metro, the built-in apps, the Windows Store, the Start Menu cluttered with tiles that are in truth downlods links/installations rather than actual programs. And Cortana; while I'm curious about that last feature, the fact that it requires my PC to always listen to me and that it will share this data over the web means death to privacy and opens more, powerful, attack routes than I am willing to bear.
Windows 7 was the best user interface MS delivered so far, and the last one that could rightfully call itself User interface. Starting with Windows 8, MS has taken user control away, and made it harder and sometimes impossible for an actual user to configure parts of the system.
Don't take me wrong: I understand and even agree with MS that this development is probably an improvement for the majority of MS users. But definitely not for me.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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 Stefan_Lang wrote:
1. Settings: the Settings App does not include all the settings from Windows 7 Control Panel, separated related settings to different dialog windows, and sometimes changing a setting in one place causes silent changes of settings in other places. Thankfully, Control Panel is still there.
As you say - the control panel is still there. And I use Windows so rarely, that it is always a bit of a search to find what you need to do, so cheese moving has a correspondingly lesser effect on me. Nevertheless, I understand the pain. I've used the same window manager in Linux for the last 20+ years - moving to a newer UI just never seemed to be worth the pain.
2. Windows updates notoriously reset some of the system settings to the default (or new defaults) silently, forcing you to redo your system configuration over and over again, just in case.
Yup, that would drive me nuts. Fortunately, I use Windows so rarely, I just leave everything at its defaults.
3. Windows Explorer Libraries: While the concept is very nice, the default installation so overloads the tree part of the window with predefined libraries and favorites that you have a hard time finding the actual file system! ( What is the point of 'favorites' if MS defines them for you? )
I don't know what these are - I guess I've never found a use for it.
4. Windows Explorer URL: Rather than showing a file path as it used to, now we get to see an 'URL'(?) that does not correspond to any real file path. Clicking into the box helps, but even then chances are that the apparent file path is not an actual file path at all - thanks to 'Libraries'. . As a result, when you try to locate files on on another computer in the LAN you can no longer rely on the path shown in Windows Explorer of the original computer, and you end up searching for these files much longer than you used to in earlier Windows versions.
Agreed 100%. Hiding the path is a distinct user fail. WTF is "My Documents" located for example, or where has the system internet browser stashed my download. Usually, I end up using the find command in cygwin to locate exactly where the file I'm looking for is when faced with that.
5. Securing your privacy: while parts of Windows telemetry are already present on W7, disabling it on W10 has become near impossible: It takes advanced guides to find all of the relevant settings, and every couple of months you need to recheck these guides because the settings were moved or split up, or newly introduced defaults need to be changed, too.
Sure - but I use Windows for only such specific tasks, that my telemetry data is most likely discarded as an outlier. Good luck with trying to figure out what I'm actually up to.
My perspective is largely documented in Why Windows is not ready for the desktop!. Most of this was from a period when I did use Windows in anger.
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Rick York wrote: I think they might have more sales if they provided the option to look like it used on W7 and XP.
The option to make it look like NT 2000 was what made me finally upgrade to XP (I don't know about anyone else, but things like rounded corners and transparency don't do a thing for me -- in fact, they put me off).
Vista had the same option. On first boot of a new Vista machine, it offered: "Do you want all the WOW! cr@p, or do you want a computer?" (I think that that was the exact wording).
Without the WOW! cr@p (and with "Classic" mode giving it the NT 2000 GUI), it was a damned good machine, and a very stable OS.
But now, the company is run by marketing morons*, and designers who dream of being as good as apple's designers -- and such incredible geniuses obviously know better than users what is best for users, don't they?
* A title they've earned over and over again.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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And for years the marketing morons' guiding principles for UI design as been to hide or remove access to all the detailed information I need.
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It's not just the "Metro UI". Ever notice how your bank and other sites that have switched to "responsive UI" designs now take twice the screen space to show the same information?
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OriginalGriff wrote: The whole "Settings" app is clumsier, harder to use, and less friendly than "Control Panel" was - and it misses out many features.
Indeed. I deliberately put links to the old Control Panel in various places because it offers a lot more settings in one place. And for the settings that are available in the App, it's intuitively easier to find where it is in Control Panel.
Besides I hate the insistance to get rid of the real world button analogy. It was intuitive and worked well. The new, flat buttons that often don't even have a discernible border are hard to recognize as such, and keep you guessing where are the functional elements in a dialog. It was a huge mistake to drop the beveled button concept without an easy to recognize and use replacement.
OriginalGriff wrote: It probably works on a phone.
The core concept of Metro was the unified UI that would work on hand-held, touch-enabled devices as well as desktops. It's obvious that such a concept could never reach the intuitivity and user-friendlyness of the existing UI frameworks in either world. MS tried and horribly failed with Windows 8. They should have learned that lesson and drop it alltogether.
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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And it's not a lot of fun on a touch device either: the WookieTab is touch, and even with a nice 12" display, Settings is harder to use than Control Panel.
The worst bit? No "Apply" or "OK" buttons - you touch, it's immediate; no chance to go "no, wrong checkbox".
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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they will not change any UI for the near future maybe in 2030 edition of windows ten with build number 59837948
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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The whole "Metro" idea is a complete failure. It feels like going back to the good old days of Norton Commander on DOS. As a matter of fact I think Norton Commander looked better and was a much more functional UI... total disaster after the slick and (mostly) consistent Windows 7 UX.
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