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One must differentiate between being proud of what one does and being proud of what one is.
Rgds PhilD
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Oh this proudness question can be interpreted in a couple of ways.
I'm not proud at all. I haven't been learning all this to flaunt and show people my huge virtual dong. I'm doing this because I love it... yes, I'd say I'm a passionate programmer. Just because I don't feel like "proud" doesn't mean I would trade it for any other thing... I'd never ever even think about it
/me flounders around in a tub of bytes.
Though if I finish a project and review it, remembering how much I've been thinking about some problems to solve in elegant and nifty ways, I feel a little proud about that piece of software and myself - still not flaunting around. Though I'm dressing attractive, I don't like publicity much anyways.
Cheers!
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qumer101 wrote: Asslam o Alaikum Hamed
Assalam o Alaikom qumer101 (If anyone reading this is not an Arab this word is equal to hello)
I'm not an Arab, but I understand what you say, Thanks.
qumer101 wrote: being a programmer there is nothing to be proud
But I didn't mean that exactly. Having a science in itself is NOT something to be proud of. What I mean is that to me there are bigger goals that I shall do them, and if I can, I will be proud of myself. Programming might be a need sometimes but not the only reason.
For example I mean if I'm a programmer and start coding a virus that offends people I'll be ashamed of myself not proud. I can't be proud of myself, even if I'm a successful programmer:
"Try not to become a man of success but rather to become a man of value." Albert Einstein
-- modified at 8:41 Friday 30th November, 2007
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I'm_alive) { cout<<"I love programming."; }
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hi dear hamed
When your name and family name is arabic you are Arab.
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Ali Khanlarkhani wrote: When your name and family name is arabic you are Arab
What a bout my profile?!
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I'm_alive) { cout<<"I love programming."; }
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Hi
For example I mean if I'm a programmer and start coding for Osama bin Laden I'll be ashamed of myself not proud. I cant be proud of myself, even if I'm a successful programmer:
I think HERO of one person is TERRORIST of other person and reverse also true. I think there is no need to put the name of Osama or other people. I may be not very useful to start such debates on code project
Anyways we should leave it here
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Oh, sorry.
I just wanted to put an example here. I mean I was wondering to give an example that anyone hates, but It is my bad. Please accept my apologies. I'm so sorry. I'll correct that typo right now.
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I'm_alive) { cout<<"I love programming."; }
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Yeah. I guess it depends on the company you're in.
Only fools rush in. Foo!
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What is so special about a programmer to make me proud of myself or my job?
To be proud, I need more than just being a programmer.
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I'm_alive) { cout<<"I love programming."; }
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Asslam o Alaikum Hamed
I agree with you, being a programmer there is nothing to be proud
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qumer101 wrote: I agree with you, being a programmer there is nothing to be proud
Then why do it?
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Well Angus
There may be number of reasons,like you do not have anything else to do . Sometimes you are in one profession but it is just profession for you nothing more than that. So in this case you do not feel proud to do things at ur work place.
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qumer101 wrote: Well Angus
Out of curiosity, why did you choose to address me with "Angus"? I've noticed a number of people have done that over the time I've been a member here and I could never understand why.
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There is no special reason behind this.
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Okay - You just preferred my middle name then... Fair enough.
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Well perhaps one possible reason is that there's a cult of cannibals out there and "Angus" just reminds them of eating, which makes them feel happy, and then they are more predisposed to respond to you with a post. Maybe. Or something like that. Then again perhaps that fails Occam's Razor
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It doesn't make me proud when I can barely do anything worth whiled, if I could i'd be proud
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote: why did you choose to address me with "Angus"? I've noticed a number of people have done that over the time I've been a member here and I could never understand why.
One reason may be the regional trait.In Pakistan mostly the second or middle name is used, unless specified the other name. For example, "Mohammad Idrees Ahmed" is called by "Idrees". Sometimes, a person is identified by their family name, which traditionally appears as the last name, but this is rare.
________________________________
Success is not something to wait for, its something to work for.
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We ought to be proud of software development.
Why?
Just look at our representatives in this field: Microsoft and Google and the gangs, they change the world.
That's why this field of work is not any less important than other fields such as discovering new medicines to cure diseases (biology).
Why is it that people think lawyers are liars and crooks, but they're proud, they always tell people they are lawyers.
mnnca
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Actually, I am proud - I am more than just a programmer. I can deconstruct any profession or business process into abstract concepts and render them into a series of complex algorithms with perhaps a dozen different code languages. With Photoshop or Lightwave I might render the interface and implement it with Flash, DHTML or Silverlight.
They in other business departments seem to have difficulty mastering their one job and cannot handle one spoken language much less a programming language which changes constantly.
Nicholas DL
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Hamed Mosavi wrote: To be proud, I need more than just being a programmer.
being a programmer in multi-processor/multi-core environments requiring massive physics engines, high math, problem solving, inventing algorithms, energy distributions, predictions, special effects, full 3D graphics, simulations of the whole world. just a programmer ain't so bad. It's all in what you are programming.
_________________________
Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau.
Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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El Corazon wrote: just a programmer ain't so bad.
Of course it's not. I love it, even though I don't earn enough from it.
El Corazon wrote: It's all in what you are programming.
Absolutely. That's what I said in another post and agree 100%
El Corazon wrote: multi-processor/multi-core environments requiring massive physics engines, high math, ...
Damn! you must enjoy programming too much. Specially if you have enough time.
Cheers.
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni while (I'm_alive) { cout<<"I love programming."; }
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Hi
Well it depends upon where u r working and in which part world your doing job. In the society where people know a very little about computers and related technologies, it is hard to be proud on such job and people knows and praise the doctors, engineers, lawyers ect.
But one thing is clear PROUD U R WORKING
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When I graduated in C.S. 25 years ago, I thought I was entering a creative, respected profession and starting a career in a fascinating high-tech industry with no where to go but up. Instead, I got a cold slap in the face from reality. Other than making a paycheck, I consider my "career" a total waste of time.
Sure, I know a lot about PC’s, Windows, C++, Sql, and Object Oriented programming – but who gives a rat’s ass?
Software developers are probably one of the most hated groups of employees of all time. Ever since the 1950’s, the long-term goal has been to make software development so easy that there is no need for us in the first place. COBOL was going to allow accountants to write their own accounting apps. VB was going to let secretaries write their own word processors. Well, VB didn’t work out, but maybe C# will. With dreamy eyes, they try to envision the day there will no longer be a need for software developers.
Over my “career”, I've seen far more piles of spaghetti slop than decent code. Very few developers give a whit about elegance, artistry or simply just taking any pride in their work. They just start churning out the code, without letting any thinking or design work get in the way. They just want to get through to the next week. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard the phrase, “We’ll go back and fix it later.” But I can tell you how many times that someone actually went back and fixed it. Unless it was a critical bug, no one ever cleaned up anything. It was left for the next round of kids to deal with.
In the meantime, after the number of software project failures has multiplied, management has taken the approach that there just aren't enough controls on these “cowboy” developers. So they come up with things like CMM and CMMI. The belief is that if they can just bog the developer down with enough rules, structure, and paperwork, and destroy all creativity and experimentation, then their software just has to start working better. Make developers march in lock-step and repeatedly go over their design on paper before writing any code on the computer (somehow this was all left out of my C.S. college education). But, oddly enough, software usually doesn’t run as well in the computer as it looks on paper. Sometimes those paper drawings just don’t work at all.
But you’ve spent too much time and money on the design documentation – so you have to proceed on regardless.
What is there to be proud of? Most employers and managers think developers are a commodity. We can easily be replaced by cheap labor from abroad -- we're sort of like sweatshop labor churning out sneakers in 3rd world countries. When one kid dies from exhaustion, you just hire another.
A profession? How many people go into their surgeon and start telling them how to operate? But somehow managers, most of whom have never written any software, not only feel qualified, but obligated to come in and tell me how to do my job.
I've worked in a lot of places, and usually less than 10% of the developers have any formal software training (i.e. a degree in C.S.). There are a lot of EE's who couldn't get any other job, so they just started writing software. Some of them don't even bother to read any books on software development. Maybe they’ll get one book on the C language, code, and go.
I've gone on plenty of interviews where the employer wanted to talk salary before even looking at my resume -- let alone talk about my accomplishments. They were looking for a certain price point -- like buying shampoo. The generics do just as good a job as the pricier name brands.
I interviewed for a job on the 1996 Olympics IBM scoring system project that, not surprisingly, turned out to be a disaster. I went in and met with the one grown-up – a white-shirted IBM manager. The developers all looked like college interns. What was my experience? I had just finished writing a multi-threaded communications server in OS/2 – exactly what they needed. But, it turns out I was far too expensive for them. They could hire several kids for my price. Who needs experienced developers when you have an experienced manager with loads of IBM books on how to write software? Of course, in the end, they never could get the multi-threading to work and the server had to call out scores to one location at a time. This was nowhere close to fast enough to keep up with the games, so I believe they went back to manually phoning out the scores. It was so embarrassing, that IBM had to cancel their advertising during the Olympics. But, at least they saved a few $’s on developers!
So what is the answer? Well, the truth is ugly, as usual. But, here is the secret: Developers are not a commodity. Writing quality software is NOT easy. It requires ongoing education and experience. Hire good developers and let them do their jobs.
Yeah, fat chance. I think I will spend my time planning on retirement.
Most people have Internet porn filters for their kids. I also have a software development filter. If any of my kids are caught trying to learn any software development, they are off the Internet for a month. And you can probably imagine what career day at my kids’ school is like.
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