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I agree with you! 
I have only worked on single person project (application wise). Any documentation before was supplied specs and temporary outlines that I created base on my research (if any). Otherwise documentation was created during or after or after the programming phase. I keep a daily log of what I did and why.
INTP
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."Edsger Dijkstra
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Happy Boss!! Dont tell that. If our part is done well, Boss will appreciate. If he does not, then he is not fit for the post. Why worry about the Boss then? 
------------------------------------------------------------
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." --Socrates
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I've only worked at one place that had their documentation before hand. It was great in that everybody knew what to expect from the program.
Every place I've worked since then has had the motto of: We'll document what we did when we find the time, meaning never. Makes for some interesting conversations. "Why is this screen laid out like this? Let me check the document..... crap! OK, what would you like it to look like?"
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Well i have to agree that getting finished docs before programming is wishfull thinking.. 
greetz
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Documentation is a no, nobody everyreads it and it's out of date the moment it's created.
Documentation is a time waster unless it's for a schrink wrapped product.
Chuck Norris counted to infinity - twice.
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I guess it depends on the kind of documentation your shooting for. Documenting code object models or DB diagrams is pretty much garbage to the end user.
However, I think documenting the user interface so that the user knows what the program should be doing when they hit a button or start an operation is a very good thing. This can be quick and as simple as "Button saves all data on the screen. Sales report will be printed for date blah blah blah."
When I've been on projects that did this the users actually looked at the documentation to learn how to use the program and would check their assumptions against it before they called us to report any issues. The other bonus is that UI specs can help prevent scope creep. "Does the documentation you signed off on say the program will do X? No? Then that's an addendum that will need to be paid for separately."
I've seen the benefits in this and would prefer all my projects started this way.
Chuck Norris doesn't tea bag people, he potato sacks them.
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My usual rule of thumb is that if the code works then it's a winner. That usually means NOT paying too much attention to the letter of the original spec. It also means that timing and budget are lower priorities. A client/customer can usually be persuaded to pay for a project if and when it works properly even if it's cost more and taken longer than planned and even if it doesn't match the original spec(because the spec was wrong). They are much less likely to pay up happily for one that was made on budget, on time, matching the spec but doesn't work!
Quality of design and implementation are always high priority.
That's what's usually right in my circumstances but in other circumstances things may be very different. For example, it's sometimes vital to get a product to market before the competition or to meet a specific timed need. Then a hastily thrown-together jumble of code that does something vaguely right may be better than nothing at all. I never work like that (I would hate it!) but some people do - sometimes it may even be justifiable.
Phil
The opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the author, especially if you find them impolite, inaccurate or inflammatory.
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As a documentation specialist this survey makes me feel so unloved! 
Oh well
S.Nowlin
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The journey is straight, it's the path that is twisted. Oh and did you hear? There is no spoon, only sporks.
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It's not you that's unloved - it's the task of documentation.
Most developers recognise the importance of documentation but hate having to do it. I would hope, therefore, that they would welcome having a tame documentation specialist to do it for them. (You are tame, aren't you?)
Phil
The opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of the author, especially if you find them impolite, inaccurate or inflammatory.
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Well, you have to 'splain your definition of "tame".
Me friends says I'm wild and crazy, but work-wise I'm very diligent.
I'm not meek by any means.
S.Nowlin
-----------------------
The journey is straight, it's the path that is twisted. Oh and did you hear? There is no spoon, only sporks.
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The number of times I could have used someone like you makes me sick. Working alone my answer to upfront documentation or creation during development, was usually something like “do you need the documentation or do you want it finished on time?”
Once time after the project application was complete and ready to go, I said now I can do all that documentation (as I had planned for). The answer was no, we need you to work on this other project now. Very frustrating as I was looking forward to a change of pace; oh well. 
INTP
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."Edsger Dijkstra
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I freelance!!! 
S.Nowlin
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The journey is straight, it's the path that is twisted. Oh and did you hear? There is no spoon, only sporks.
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am I using CListCtrl? If I'm not, the likelihood of completing the job in a reasonable and sane time frame is probably not within the problem domain that you've set for yourself. On the other hand, it might be simpler to go out, have a few beers with your buddies, and just contemplate Chuck Norris counting to infinity.
¡El diablo está en mis pantalones! ¡Mire, mire!
Real Mentats use only 100% pure, unfooled around with Sapho Juice(tm)!
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Save an Orange - Use the VCF!
VCF Blog
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How often would the boss/client be happy, if the job matched the initial spec ?
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
"I am working on a project that will convert a FORTRAN code to corresponding C++ code.I am not aware of FORTRAN syntax" ( spotted in the C++/CLI forum )
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Very rarely I suspect. That is why it is often a moving target.
INTP
"Program testing can be used to show the presence of bugs, but never to show their absence."Edsger Dijkstra
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What makes the Boss happy and what makes the Client happy are usually at odds with each other. The Boss usually wants the projects done on time and under budget. The Client usually wants all their features, plus a few more that they just thought up a day before the deadline. As scope starts to creep as it often does there is a fine line to be walked. An extra feature can normally be put in here or there when time is left over, but if hours are tight the client starts to hear "No" when they ask for changes.
The boss will be happy you said no to new features or changes but the clients won't be.
The extent that this becomes an issue is based on the company you work for in my experience. I've seen both extremes. I worked for one company that would gladly burn clients at the stake as long as we got paid. I've also worked for a company that would loose money on a client just to make sure they were happy in the end.
As a employee who likes to receive paychecks I make sure the boss is happy first.
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What a pedantic lot you all are
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote: Watson's law:
As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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thrakazog wrote: As a employee who likes to receive paychecks I make sure the boss is happy first.
I'm my own boss - if my client is happy then I'm happy.
In my case, I voted 5 for this one.
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Come on guys, when is the boss ever happy
Why is it when you are busy everyone whats it yesterday, But when your not no-one has any work for you?
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This, my friend, is a corralary of Murphy's Law.*
*Murphy's Law was, not, in fact, named after Murphy, but was actually named after someone else with the same name!
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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Just curious. I've seen so many promising products release to a big fanfare and rave customer reviews that (not too much) later are rotting on the vine because fixing bugs and adding unforeseen features are nearly impossible.
Dale Thompson
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"The job is fully documented
The design and implementation was first rate"
Those go some way towards maintainability, right?
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Andy Brummer wrote: Watson's law:
As an online discussion of cars grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving the Bugatti Veyron approaches one.
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Maintainability is WITHOUT A DOUBT covered in Design and implementation.
Mike Tsouris
Developer
http://tsouris.net
michael@tsouris.net
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Sure - someone is paying me to make something for them.
But, the reason I'm in this business is because I love coding.
It's no different than a painter or composer;
Or a chemist or physicist.
I hope I include most of you when I say this is our art.
A fine piece of work - a clever routine or an imaginative solution: because we are more and better than an a cooks following recipies on a boxes.
That our work wasn't merely done by the book - but beyond it.
Why else do this for money?
"You sell all your hours for a handful of dimes . . ." - Jimi Hendrix
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I agree. What we do is an art and we all take pride in it......
BUT. DO NOT FORGET that....
Oracle costs a crap load of money
SQL Server licenses costs a crap load of money
WINDOWS SERVER costs a crap load of money
20 licenses of VISUAL STUDIO 2005 for your development team costs a crap load of money
Where does that money come from?
The business. We code for money FIRST. Just like musicians and artists who work for commissions, we all have to set aside our own preferences when we are doing this as a professional gig.
I love a beautiful architecture as much as the next senior programmer, BUT, money talks, and there are many times when we have to PURPOSEFULLY make a piss poor sh*t design because that is what fits in budget and time line.
good programmers know how to make it work inside these real world parameters.
THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF ALL THIS IS DELIVERY.
Bugs can be fixed and are considered acceptable in our culture.
Look at the .NET Framework..... Have you ever profiled "hello world" in a .NET app? It uses like 20mb of memory! But who cares, because the point is rapid delivery of working applications.
Optimization and beautiful architecture is a LUXURY.
Mike Tsouris
Developer
http://tsouris.net
michael@tsouris.net
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