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GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 2:56
professionalJeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 2:56 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:03
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:03 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
jschell18-Dec-23 7:04
jschell18-Dec-23 7:04 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
jschell18-Dec-23 7:17
jschell18-Dec-23 7:17 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 9:36
trønderen18-Dec-23 9:36 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
jschell19-Dec-23 4:49
jschell19-Dec-23 4:49 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen19-Dec-23 13:59
trønderen19-Dec-23 13:59 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
jschell20-Dec-23 5:40
jschell20-Dec-23 5:40 
trønderen wrote:
Sure, I am talking science. Math and logic.


No you are talking about science and only that.

The big bang does not exist in logic. It does not exist in math. Both of those are used in science but science is not a superset of those.

trønderen wrote:
I would prefer that you stay outside the realm of science.


I don't understand that statement. The general logical assumption about God is specifically about God being outside the universe.

Feel free to deny that the assumption is valid. But you are going to need to spend a lot more time and do a lot more formal work to prove that the assumption is invalid.

To be clear I would certainly like to see such a proof. But claims to science, in any way, do not work because logic and science are not the same.

trønderen wrote:
Breaking science away from the real, physical world is impossible.


Which has nothing to do with anything that I have stated.

trønderen wrote:
I see science as a description,


At this point it is not clear to me that you have a clear understanding of the difference between logic and science.

Not even clear to me that you even understand that they are different.

But I can only go with what you have stated in these few posts.

Perhaps you are just unclear that my comments have nothing to do with science?

Or perhaps you think that I talking about religious belief? That however is not true.

Perhaps by making a somewhat limited formal proof would help.

I am NOT attempting to prove God exists. I am merely providing a logical (not scientific) proof for discussion.

First be clear that logically assumptions are little more than definitions. They do NOT need to be accepted as fact nor even based on prior proofs. But even so they can be used in a logical proof.

So a simple logical proof (again NOT scientific.)
1. Assume God exists
2. Assume God, by definition, is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing.
3. Assume God created the entire universe yesterday. Or 6,000 years ago.
4. Assume God does not want a any human ever to be sure that God exists.
5. Conclusion: This means that there is not and cannot ever be any evidence in any form of any type in the entire universe that either prove or disprove God.

Now how does one invalidate that as a proof?
1. One could dispute the meaning of 4. Perhaps by asking 'why'. That however is not a valid way to refute this because it is outside the scope of this specific proof. Doesn't mean it isn't a valid question but it is not valid for this proof.
2. One could state that 1 is false. Then, logically, the rest of the proof is invalid (pointless.) Note that one doesn't need to prove 1 is false. It is sufficient to just say 'it is false'.
3. One could argue that 5 does not follow. But it does because 2 insures that in any way conceivable now or in the future that any such evidence was discovered that God would have already known about that and prevented it. (The movie "I, Origins" ignores that when presenting its story. In that movie God must have made a mistake or in fact 4 in the above does not hold.)

There are other ways to invalidate the above proof.

modified 21-Dec-23 9:19am.

GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 9:58
trønderen18-Dec-23 9:58 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 10:16
trønderen18-Dec-23 10:16 
JokeRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Daniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:38
professionalDaniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:38 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Daniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:22
professionalDaniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:22 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon17-Dec-23 2:48
professionalJeremy Falcon17-Dec-23 2:48 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen17-Dec-23 7:37
trønderen17-Dec-23 7:37 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 2:43
professionalJeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 2:43 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:00
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:00 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 3:03
professionalJeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 3:03 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:59
trønderen18-Dec-23 3:59 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 4:00
professionalJeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 4:00 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 4:18
trønderen18-Dec-23 4:18 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Jeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 4:19
professionalJeremy Falcon18-Dec-23 4:19 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
trønderen18-Dec-23 4:23
trønderen18-Dec-23 4:23 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Steve Raw15-Dec-23 5:29
professionalSteve Raw15-Dec-23 5:29 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
Daniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:33
professionalDaniel Pfeffer16-Dec-23 22:33 
GeneralRe: I'm only 12.5% sure that God exists... Pin
BernardIE531721-Dec-23 19:10
BernardIE531721-Dec-23 19:10 

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