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OO isn't a problem unless you turn it into a problem.
Unfortunately, a lot of people manage to.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Lua (and C++), for instance, doesn't do that and it simply feels better sometimes.
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I've seen plenty of people, including profs who should darn well know better try to use C++ as an object oriented language.
It's one of my peeves.
I want to buy anyone that does it a copy of Accelerated C++ by Andrew Koenig and Barbara Moo, so that they can learn the more effective way to abstract in C++
Real programmers use butterflies
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The problem with professors is they want to teach their students 'low level stuff', like, for instance, arrays, using C++. It can be done, of course, but it isn't, in my opinion, the smartest way to start teaching C++.
Might be there are also very-old-school teachers that don't appreciate (or simply are unaware of) the powerful OOP support C++ provides. But I believe this is a negligible minority.
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generic programming is something anyone can learn easily for about $25-$30 using Accelerated C++ - too bad it's not a textbook
Real programmers use butterflies
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That's self-teaching.
Professors, on the other hand, exist for different purpose (produce chaos in student minds).
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CPallini wrote: C# enforces OOP. That's no good.
I think the real world is similar. They always want me to, say, distinguish between different people when I see them as a homogenous grey map. They even try to tell that this "object" belongs to "that" object, while I think I should be free to use anything the way I want to. They even say that there are things I am not allowed to look at, it is their "private life". This idea of the world being split into distinct "objects" really bothers me.
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Now you are going philosophical. 
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Any tool even a lame one is as good as a person using it.
OOP is great when used and applied correctly.
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You know, the right tool for the right job. For certain jobs OOP is simply not the right tool.
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Agree...
More and more I'm starting to think we have been going the wrong way.
The article that really had me started thinking about this was this one:
https://medium.com/better-programming/object-oriented-programming-the-trillion-dollar-disaster-92a4b666c7c7
Excellent article.
The simplest pieces of code we try to make so abstract that at some point it doesn't make sense anymore and gets hard to understand. You end op with classes like: OrderManagerProviderOrchestrator or OrderFactoryStrategy. And all of this because, you know, SOLID, KISS, abstraction, dependency injection, blah blah blah,...
We spend so much time making code that way, making it independent, scaleable, etc. But in the end, whenever some change it necessary: oh no, this means we have to refactor everything!
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Agreed, and thanks for the link. It gives me some reading for this morning =)
Real programmers use butterflies
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your link links back to the lounge btw. I had to copy it out to get it
Real programmers use butterflies
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it was worth it. Thanks for the link
Real programmers use butterflies
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the main take away from this article could be summarized like:
" I’m not criticizing Alan Kay’s OOP — he is a genius. I wish OOP was implemented the way he designed it. I’m criticizing the modern Java/C# approach to OOP..."
The second thing: the article writer talks about OOP and there no mentioning about one of the best OO system -- Smalltalk which was a result of Alan's efforts at Zerox PARC.
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Maybe you were too quick in summarizing it:
"Yes, of course Smalltalk is a proper OOP language — however, it is not in wide use. Both Smalltalk and Erlang make use of OOP the way it was originally intended by its inventor, Alan Kay."
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Same.
After doing C++ for a couple of years, I've mostly restricted object design to db models and very rudimentary abstractions over external services and data sources.
I feel like in OO design, too often we build abstractions on top of abstractions in a weird attempt to clean up ugly datasets, that somehow feel wrong to us on a basic level. 95% plain data and 5% esoteric? You can bet someone over-engineered a solution so the 5% can now be deduced from model-state alone.
Every year I spend more and more time reversing situations like that, just to keep projects manageable. Cutting factories, flattening inheritance trees, and sometimes even re-introducing the dreaded 2% data redundancy that took 15 objects to solve.
IMO, people are inherently bad at abstraction, so it's in our best interest to KISS.
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I profoundly agree
Real programmers use butterflies
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I found much the same - although it was C++ that finally convinced me that OO wasn't 'all that' 8)
After 'objectifying' some intricate real-world code (for an airline/shipping booking system) I realised that in order to get the behaviour of the objects right I was creating what were in effect object 'global' variables that could (due to inheritance) easily get accidentally 'hidden' by a variable with the same name in the dependent module. In other words - because it was a legal thing to do in C++ - variable scope could be overridden without warning (fortunately compilers these days do warn about such things).
When the fiasco that was manipulators (which I used extensively!) hit when going from Ver1 to Ver2, which then got corrected again in Ver3 (FFS!) I decided that C++ and its vision of OO was getting far more complex and difficult to manage correctly (for me anyway - my failing perhaps, not the language itself?) that I switched to Java for my next OO projects. Very verbose cf C++ but much more stable at the level I was using.
However, other programmers of long-standing who I respect have gradually formed similar views to mine about OO and C++ in particular so I don't feel too downhearted. 8)
Quite by chance all my work now is in either Visual Basic for Applications (Access), SQL Server or Python, so go figure! If I had to go back to something close to the machine I would almost certainly go for C rather than C++ (or maybe Go etc).
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I'd argue that C++ doesn't have a real vision of OO. It is capable of doing OO but wasn't really made for it.
Rather than OOP, CPP is geared for generic programming, like how STL is laid out.
Real programmers use butterflies
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Guys you are all complaining about C++ and it's idiosyncrasies, no OPP.
C++ is not OOP !
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Agreed. I started using OO over 20 years ago and from the start, I was wary of some of the uses I saw, and that's just increased as time's passed.
There are some cases where it can be useful, but the vast majority of the time, you are more likely to get value from constraining behaviour (I like the type class feature in Haskell, and also traits in Rust). And if you really have a bunch of related types, then gathering them together as a 'sum type' often has better ergonomics.
Java, Basic, who cares - it's all a bunch of tree-hugging hippy cr*p
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I did OO before there was no OO... (Well, Simula had been around for some years, but the term OO was not yet in use.
The professor teaching my first university level programming course insisted on strict discipline: With a Pascal RECORD definition followed those functions that operated on the record fields; those were the only code allowed to work on the fields - just like OO methods. A record "class" could have variants, "subclasses", etc.
I must admit that I liked the orderly, disciplined way. We didn't know that we did OO; it was just a "best practices" thing to more easily manage the operations on the records.
A couple of years later, I got access to the OS source code for a 16-bit mini, written in a language midway between assembler and C. For the drivers, I saw a class hierarchy: Several subclasses of class objects, with method tables and pointers to superclasses, and then instances objects of these for each device, all hand written, but the same way as the a C++ compiler would lay out its classes and instances. I must admit that I was impressed. By this time, OO was on its way in, so I recognized the OO concepts, but when I mentioned this to the OS developers they didn't get it. That's simply how you write an orderly structure of generic drivers with specializations. OO, what's that?
So I've come to use OO in a fairly lightweight style: To organize similar data and the operations to go with them. Language developers seem to think that every new release of a language simply must include some new "language concepts", some fancy mechanism(s) that can do things in even more abstract, hard-to-grasp ways (maybe "elegant", once you have comprehended it, but often quite far from "obvious" in the way it works). I tend to ignore super-conceptual, super-fancy mechanism; even though they may help you conceptualize the problem solution in your head, it often tends to make the program code more obscure. "That's not a feature, that is a (design) bug!"
Use those OO facilities that make the program code more lucid, better organized. But don't let it obscure your program solution, just because you insist on showing that you master this new concept that was introduced in the last language revision.
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I don't think that 'OOP as currently conceived by many languages didn't fulfil all the promises made about it' is particularly controversial.
Especially the idea that we can (or even should) model reality into classes representing things seems a bit odd in retrospect. We found ways to work around these limitations (like design patterns, not using inheritance), but the very fact that we need these things shows the limitations of the paradigm.
I came from this from the other way, I learned functional programming and am now very happily merging the 2 paradigms together. (we all do, LINQ is FP)
OOP does some things better, FP does others better (like concurrency), the most important thing is to keep it simple. People get hung up on reuse and abstractions, while they should be focussed on cognitive load and simplicity.
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