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I didn't think of it like that.
At the beginning before I wrote the JWT auth policies, I tried to make the app really code compact. It was just "GetOrder", then I renamed it to "GetAdminOrder" to reflect JWT Auth. I really need to streamline this naming.
return CreatedAtRoute directly? No need to return Ok. I wonder if using Ok wraps the JSON result in that extra envelope. I'll find out here, takes 10 mins to test it.
I made the code changes, and will give it a try, I'm sure it will work fine. I really don't want the extra route decorator anyways, it was just part of an example of using CreatedAtRoute I picked up over a year ago. I must admit that using CreatedAtRoute is pretty handy.
var result = CreatedAtRoute("GetAdminOrder", new { orderId = order.Id }, order);
return Ok(result);
[HttpGet("GetAdminOrder/{orderId}", Name = "GetOrder"), Authorize(AuthenticationSchemes = AuthSchemes, Policy = AuthPolicies.Admin)]
If it ain't broke don't fix it
Discover my world at jkirkerx.com
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That worked out really well!
Thanks Richard
If it ain't broke don't fix it
Discover my world at jkirkerx.com
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kindly help me to solve this issue.....i have Created a Login website - Validation Controls Registration Page but my submit button doesn't show message code i wrote which was:-
Response.Write("YOU HAVE SUCCESSFULLY REGISTERED...!!!!");
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Please edit your question and show the code that has the problem. Without it it is impossible to guess what may be wrong.
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button code was one line code and here it is,
Response.Write("you have successfully registered!!!");
once i fill out my web form registration form and i click on submit button nothing is displayed from what i wrote on button code(submit)
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Please read my suggestion again.
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but i didn't understand ..kindly break it for me
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In addition to what Richard said, asp.net doesn't work like that, response.write is useless in 99% of occasions. If you view the source of your page you'll probably see your message right at the very bottom where it is no use at all. If you want to show a message in a particular place use an empty asp:Label or asp:Literal and when you want the message to be there set the Text of the label\literal to your message, you can also use the Visible property to show\hide it.
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Kindly where can i find asp:label? or literal and how am i going to use it? kindly direct me
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Just the same way you used to add the button control, same way you will find the Label control and add it.
Or just copy this
<asp:Label ID="Label1" Text="Label1" runat="server"/>
Then from codebehind, enter this code on your submit button event.
Label1.Text = "You have successfully registered";
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How can anyone help you without seeing what you did?
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other.
Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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In researching my options for a new development endeavor based on my current, desktop, document management system for individuals, I once again turned to the ASP.NET MVC paradigm as consideration.
Having worked on a very large ASP.NET MVC application a number of years ago, I was already quite familiar with the general foundations of the MVC paradigm within the ASP.NET development environment. Thinking that this environment is the way to go for new web application, I began to re-familiarize myself with the technologies involved since I have been primarily working in WPF for the past several years.
After spending several weeks relearning these technologies I came to the same conclusion I did those years ago that the ASP.NET MVC paradigm is nothing more than an overly complex, inefficient way to build database intensive applications. The moment one needs to include complex, interface components, ASP.NET MVC provides little efficiency in doing so.
As a result, to do this, one has to turn to large amounts of JavaScript frameworks and control suites to support such interfaces along with all the arcane techniques in coding the support for such interfaces.
Currently, the ASP.NET MVC\Core tools environment has exploded from a limited set of useful adjunct tools (ie: jQuery) to such a plethora of such tools that one new to this type of development would have a very difficult time in attempting to understand where to start.
As one who has done an extensive amount of ASP.NET WebForms development, I often wonder what drove our profession to turn to such a complex architecture as ASP.NET MVC and now ASP.NET Core (which is just another name for MVC).
It seems to me, that my colleagues, young and old, were complacent enough to allow our primary development tools vendor, Microsoft, to set the conditions and terms of our development futures by simply accepting their technology roadmaps for the future. So how's that been working out for everyone? In a recent announcement, Microsoft has stated that both WebForms and Windows Communication Foundation will not be supported in the newer releases of the .NET Core Frameworks. Refining the .NET Framework is certainly understandable but eliminating core technologies which has thousands applications relying on the original technologies is certainly draconian to the companies that require such ongoing support. And what are they to do; invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to rewrite applications that are working well enough to be maintained in their original form simply because Microsoft no longer wants to support them. That's their job!
When Bill Gates was the CEO of Microsoft, we had a person who more or less was committed to the development community's needs and requirements.
To be sure, he wasn't perfect but for the most part he fell in line with the overall needs of our profession.
In 2010, when Stave Ballmer was starting to take the reins of Microsoft, ASP.NET MVC was introduced to the surprise of many of us ASP.NET WebForms developers who had experience with the Classic ASP development environment. Practically to a person, the reaction to this new paradigm was that of a giant step backwards. Little did we know at that time how truly backwards MVC was considering that its foundations were designed in the 1970s.
The Castle Project for quiet sometime had been freely offering its own ASP.NET MVC Open Source project, MonoRails, but it never found much interest in the Microsoft Development Community. ASP.NET WebForms, even with all its inefficiencies and issues, was still an environment where complex web applications could be easily developed and tested.
But the naysayers for this environment quickly enough got their voices heard and for some reason, many professionals began to listen. The claims by these professionals was that ASP.NET MVC offered developers a brand new environment with much greater control over their interface development processes. But in terms of efficiency and accomplishing actual development, such control was in reality a mirage.
So we gave up easy to implement server controls for either JavaScript equivalents along with whatever standardized HTML offered in this venue.
We gave up easy to develop n-tiered application development for a range of technologies that in reality didn't really offer anything that we already had. Was it the fault of ASP.NET WebForms that many developers chose to implement massive amounts of code in the web page code-behind modules when most of it should have been placed in tiered libraries?
Certainly with the complexities of ASP.NET MVC and now Core, poor application development was just as much a danger to software quality as the original environment was. But wasn't that supposed to be the choice of the developer?
And what about this nonsense, which everyone touts as "a separation of concerns"? What, developers cannot understand how to do this without a new paradigm to help them along!?
Of course we have the claim that ASP.NET MVC allows for Test Driven development. So what? What type of tests is anyone going to write for a database intensive application where the majority of such work will be the correct updating of data or its retrieval? Developers can no longer understand their own results? Has anyone considered that try-catch blocks are the best way to capture erroneous processes? And what other way would one do so in the event?
In the 1990s a former chemical engineer turned software engineer wrote an excellent manual for developing top performing client-server and web applications. He demonstrated the correct way to create such applications all of which was based on efficient n-tiered architectures with all of his work bench-marked to demonstrate its credibility. To this day, I have not come across a single organization that actually implemented any of this person's constructs.
Lets take a single example from this man's work to demonstrate this. To increase application performance at the very least by 50%, one should divide their database systems to handle both OLTP transactions for updating and OLAP for data retrieval. This way, two sets of database servers (clustered or not) divide divide the work so that the data access type benefits from the most efficient way of processing them.
Too much work (and costs) for organizations to consider was the basic, unstated reason for ignoring such a design.
So the propagandists in our profession decided that manipulating all of the code would be better way to achieve such performance. Well, guess what? Hardware engineers and specialists in the 1990s also demonstrated that this was and still is complete nonsense. Developing high performance web applications is completely reliant on quality hardware that can perform well. No amount of code manipulation will make a web application work better if the underlying hardware is not there to support it. Of course, with bad code one can certainly make a web application perform poorly but with good code, the benefits to speed can only be maximized so much. Remember that the underlying architecture and protocols of the Internet are still the original ones designed in the 1970s.
In 2005 or a little later another book was produced by a Silicon Valley software engineer, entitled, High Performance ASP.NET Applications. This book corroborated the earlier hardware engineer findings by demonstrating that not only was proper hardware necessary for good performance but that its configuration (both hardware and software) was vital as well, which this book showed one how to do.
This book hardly made a ripple on our profession since most such implementations were handled by teams that had little to do with actual software development.
Over the years we have gone from one ridiculous, development paradigm to another, none of which really abided by classic and well researched software engineering standards. Instead it became the tools we used instead of how we actually developed our applications.
Just a few years ago, another software engineer took a medium sized ASP.NET WebForms application and converted it to the ASP.NET MVC environment to understand the performance differences since there has been really very little such research done in our profession (Unfortunately, I have since lost the link to this engineer's findings.) What this engineer found was that there really wasn't a significant difference between a decently written WebForms application and that of an MVC one.
I doubt that with all the latest tools from Microsoft and other third-party vendors this difference has really been greatly changed. Again, it goes back to the hardware for which recent years have seen great strides in the internal workings of the various chip-sets and disk drives.
So why ASP.NET MVC\Core???
Younger generations of developers really do not have the experience to make such comparisons while the older developers, of which there are really few of us left any longer, should have known better.
It seems to me that the real reason for the growth of the MVC paradigm had nothing to do with any significant increase in developer productivity or application performance. How could it be with the massive complexities that have become part and parcel to such development. As a result, this smacks of a foundation for job security more than anything else. The more complex a skill is, the fewer people can master it. And that means fewer quality developers for the hiring.
I mean, who in their right mind would use ASP.NET MVC\Core and then tout its benefits? And for whom by the way? Certainly it is not the corporations who allow its implementation since there isn't a single reason that anyone has espoused that provides for better development efficiency that a corporation could take advantage of. Does one really believe that a few saved milliseconds actually enhances a corporation's operational efficiencies?
In my long career, I have developed just about every type of application there is to develop within the business development environments with the few exceptions of such applications such as trading applications or the like. Nonetheless, using our original tools at the time, I and my fellow colleagues were able to produce high quality software that rarely if ever produced issues for our users.
And yet today, with all the wonders of software, technological advances, many web sites do not operate properly and many are increasingly being breached with huge amounts of critical data being appropriated. Any security specialist could tell you that part of this rampant criminality is the construct of the Cloud but also, simply the inherent complexity of what we use to develop, which provides fertile ground for increased defects and vulnerabilities for our applications.
ASP.NET WebForms may be dead and of course now shunned. However, had the professional development community insisted that Microsoft rectify its flaws, the company would have done so and was doing so until its shunning became too much of a burden for Microsoft to credibly maintain.
I believe that my profession has bet on the wrong horse. And with the stresses and complexities in web development today, it appears that this bad bet is causing us a lot of issues. From dissatisfaction in our work to contending with increasing amounts of defects, it may be time that my colleagues reconsider their decision to support such a cantankerous, development environment. Or maybe too many of you are simply to heavily invested to do so.
Sometimes, returning to the old ways is the best course of action for the future. And with the technological quagmires we have in our lives today, maybe overall simplicity should be the overriding concern for deciding upon a development technology.
Whatever the critics of this piece may say, they simply cannot deride the overall simplicity in development efficiency and the greater compartmentalization of such development that ASP.NET WebForms provided.
Who are you going to listen to; some engineer who is promoting a paradigm, an ideology, or someone who is promoting a tool that just got the job done and done well...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Thank the great Ghu I retired before I had to get involved with the current kludge of web tech. I still have not forgiven them for the death of Silverlight! I did think I would take the time to learn new tech out of interest but anything to do with the web just fells so 80's.
Marketing, especially well funded and supported marketing will always triumph over good product and when your primary tool supplier decides on a technology there are not many who will be able to break away from that supplier.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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Mycroft...
A fan of the great detective are we? 
In any event, I completely agree with you regarding the ASP.NET MVC environment and all the other subsequent tools that developers apply to it.
It did not encourage me to retire when I did in 2014 but I was seeing the writing on the walls.
As I believe I mentioned in my original post, most developers were actually aghast at the basis for the ASP.NET MVC paradigm as most remarked that it returned our development backwards to the 1990s and Classic ASP.
To date, this is exactly what the new Razor Pages software provides; files mixed with markup and C# code (instead of VBScript).
I cannot for the life of me understand why so many developers turned against ASP.NET WebForms when it was capable of so much.
The only additional tools we required to work with WebForms was a good foundation in JavaScript and jQuery and possibly a good third-party tools provider. That was it... And still is.
It appears that when dealing with the younger generations in general they are no longer capable of understanding anything that is beyond their scope of perspectives. But they are sure fast to adopt whatever the technical vendors provide them.
Maybe I am getting too old but there is fight left in me yet.
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: A fan of the great detective are we
No that was the name of the computer in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress 
Steve Naidamast wrote: but there is fight left in me yet
Tilting at windmills more likely!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity -
RAH
I'm old. I know stuff - JSOP
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I had that book by Heinlein but I can't remember if I read it or not. It was so long ago...
I brought down a lot of bad managers in my time.
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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WebForms may be simpler for simple drag-and-drop development, but the moment you try to do anything sophisticated it gets a lot more complicated.
MVC provides a lot more flexibility, but it does require more familiarity with how web applications work. But having seen some of the common rookie mistakes - using MessageBox.Show, trying to save and launch files directly to the client, trying to read files directly from the client, etc. - that's probably not a bad thing.
All web applications have to use HTML, CSS, and Javascript for their UI. WebForms had a lot of third-party controls which did the dirty work for you, but that comes at the cost of flexibility. There are also third-party UI components for MVC and plain Javascript - they just need a little more setting up than dragging a control from the toolbox onto your page.
If you're still a fan of WebForms, perhaps you might want to look at Razor Pages or Blazor instead.
Introduction to Razor Pages in ASP.NET Core | Microsoft Docs[^]
Blazor | Build client web apps with C# | .NET[^]
Escaping WebForms is a tough gig, Blazor might have the solution[^]
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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I can't say I've ever considered performance to be one of the benefits of MVC, however given there is less framework stuff going on under the covers it should perform slightly better and I believe tests have shown that it does.
WebForms was an attempt to being the desktop paradigm of coding to the web where the mechanics of http was hidden behind a framework that supplied a persisted state and event-driven model the way desktop GUI apps work. I suppose this was to help people move from desktop to web easier with less of a learning curve. Conversely MVC is more of a bare-bones framework that requires better understanding of http. I'd also say it is better balanced than webforms where you can make your code server-side only, client-side heavy or a mix of both, where WebForms was focused on making things server-side only and it could be tricky doing things that were client-rich. When WebForms was popular this wasn't an issue but as the web got more client-right WebForms got slightly more unwieldy.
As Richard said, while this was a learning curve for some is it really a bad thing? Shouldn't people commit to understanding web technologies if they are writing web sites? Your remarks that MVC somehow requires javascript is a common misconception I see. You can still write everything server-side and have your partial views function like asp serverside controls if that is what you want, nothing is stopping you, you just have to handle the state management yourself and know how to work out what button was pressed, or if you want a linkbutton or autopostback type feature you'll need some js to replace the js that WebForms created for you automatically. Sure it's more work, there's no doubting that WebForms made certain tasks easier but that ease of use came at an efficiency cost and it was easier to write "bad" WebForms code.
Testing is another tool in the MVC toolbox even if you don't do test-driven development. Properly written MVC applications make it far easier to unit-test more aspects of your code due to the decoupling from a web context. That might not be important for you, but it is important in many big organisations that like to have test coverage.
I think what it really comes down to is that WebForms was seen by many (rightly or wrongly...I personally think wrongly) as a RAD or a "prototyping" technology and moving to the MVC paradigm has allowed it to grow up a little and become a bit more professional, offering greater flexibility at the expense of the developer having to do a little more work and understand web technologies a bit better.
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My apologies for not replying sooner to the people who commented on my post. However, I have been involved in quite a bit of in-depth testing of the newer web development tools on offer by Microsoft, which includes ASP.NET MVC, Blazor, and Razor pages.
I have a standard that I always go by when it comes to software tools... If it can't be figured out in 20 minutes it is not worth the effort. I use this standard as a basis for how well the corresponding documentation to the tools presents itself to the developer while allowing the developer to quickly set up scenarios that he or she would require for their projected endeavor.
What I found in my testing is that the web development environments now being offered by Microsoft are almost schizophrenic in nature while being accompanied by such erratic documentation from a wide range of sources as to be almost incomprehensible. So much of the documentation provides for so many differing implementations of the same thing that a developer would be more than confused as to which one is best for his or her circumstances in addition to which implementation actually works consistently.
As it regards ASP.NET WebForms being merely a prototyping software tool. This is completely false. WebForms was designed to be similar to current desktop development endeavors with an event driven environment. However, it did not fully encapsulate the concept of the thin-client, which was a radical departure from desktop applications where such clients were usually quite heavy.
The thin-client model became popular in the late 1990s and early 2000s as a result of the n-tiered client-server architecture then being promoted. In my view, the thin-client concept was and still is far superior to the now thick-client emphasis in development. The thin-client was there to promote only code on the front-end that dealt with the display and retrieval aspects of the interface, leaving the rest to various tiers in the overall application\system. Such a distributed nature of this type of development was and still is the primary factor in making distributed systems that could scale with very high levels of concurrency.
The person who replied that ASP.NET MVC could be made server-side like WebForms may have been able to accomplish such a development but it is not based upon the inherent MVC paradigm if such a development breaks with it, which is strictly based on a middle-tier model along with its corresponding middle-tier controller. The view then is used strictly for the interface. There is no allowance for pre-made components such as is found with WebForms to easily work with the front-end and middle-tiers of such an application, unless you consider the mass of JavaScript comprised components that currently make up the MVC front-end arena.
JavaScript as a basis for such components was never a wise choice by developers simply because the language was never designed for such usage and according to a recent document discussing the nature of the current JavaScript environments still has not been refined well enough to do so. In reality, this leaves MVC with a very limited basis for its implementation, that of content sites. In fact, until it was taken down from the Microsoft site, this emphasis was in fact promoted by Microsoft until they realized that people were using MVC for more than it was designed for.
Having worked on one of the largest MVC projects in the United States in 2010, I saw first hand how inept this paradigm was for complex database project development. The work required to implement such a basic framework was completely out of line with the requirements and deadlines the project had been based upon as I and my colleagues had to work far harder and longer to accomplish the same things that would have been required by the more sophisticated WebForms construct. The fact that WebForms may have not been as efficient as the MVC environment really made little sense to worry about given the huge complexities dinvolved.
Though my colleagues were highly capable software engineers and I admired them for such capabilities, it made little sense to me why they would put themselves in such a position that required them to work far longer hours with far more complexity than that which would have been required had the project been developed with WebForms.
The reason for all this was that my colleagues were of the opinion that this new MVC paradigm was the correct way to build new Internet applications.
They were abjectly wrong since there is no correct way to build such applications. The Internet is based upon a very old technology that was primarily designed to simply support basic messaging, not the complexities that are being sent over it now. In the end, the Internet's primary request and response methods are still the only two communication factors that are available to us at a general level, with lower level forms of communication being more recently implemented.
The idea that was promoted in one of the replies here that developers should have a greater understanding of how the Internet works in order to develop better applications is complete nonsense. That is not our job as software engineers and developers. Our job is to develop quality applications; not worry about what is going on underneath the hood as they say. That job is for network and hardware specialists.
And even if one knows how the Internet works, so what? You are still going to be bound with how any one software tool works to develop your applications.
Recently Microsoft has produced the Blazor environment and the new Razor Pages development paradigm; neither of which appear to work very comfortably considering that attempting to mix the two under certain circumstances yields unworkable conflicts. And yet one has a hard time attempting to figure out just where one environment ends and another picks up based on a lot of the documentation I have gone through.
Razor started off as a more efficient view-engine for MVC and now it is being touted as an alternative development environment on top of the ASP.NET MVC foundation. In fact, Microsoft is touting Razor Pages as the new WebForms. However, trying such an implementation out in its various formats had its own issues demonstrating that it was hardly ready for prime time development. The biggest one I found was the arcane techniques required to extract data when posted from the front-end. I imagine this will be corrected over time but it brings up the question as to why Microsoft would even tout such a development as a new form of a now denigrated technology. I suggest that it is most likely that Microsoft, very late in the game, realized their mistake by dropping the WebForms paradigm in the first place as ASP.NET MVC simply cannot compete with its sophistication and simpler style in the development of quality applications. And for all its inefficiencies, WebForms development, when done correctly, yielded far fewer defects that any other overly complex technology such as MVC would do so under stressful conditions.
In fact, Microsoft did attempt to port WebForms to its new ASP.NET Core environment but found that doing so was causing all sort of issues. As a result, they have been working their way back to it with their latest implemntation of Razor Pages. Nonetheless, the current mechanism in Razor Pages that appears to work consistently is a complete throw-back to Classic ASP, whereby C# code is inherently mixed with HTML markup in a single file. What is this? And now we are supposed to believe that after years of denigrating such a mixture of code it is supposed to be the "new thing"?
There are developments in Razor Pages with a new form of Code-Behind modular structure as was with the WebForms Aspx construct but I have not found it to work very consistently... At least not yet...
I am finding that people who promote the ASP.NET MVC style of development appear not to have been exposed to its drastic limitations when under stress with the development large-scale, complex, database, intensive applications. No one in their right mind would promote such a bare-bones framework as ASP.NET MVC under such circumstances that relies on so many auxiliary technologies to make it work with the complex interfaces involved.
I saw this first hand and ASP.NET MVC has not evolved to a point that would make such implementations easier. In fact, it is getting even more complex than its earlier incarnations. And complexity is the bane of quality software development...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: There is no allowance for pre-made components such as is found with WebForms to easily work with the front-end and middle-tiers of such an application, unless you consider the mass of JavaScript comprised components that currently make up the MVC front-end arena.
@Html.TextBoxFor(...)
What do you call that? You can also write your own html extensions so you can have
@Html.LoginForm()
or a custom grid that outputs html with edit capabilities. There's nothing stopping you writing componentised code. As I said in my other reply, yes the state is handled differently but MVC is a different paradigm so of course some things need to be done in a slightly different way.
I spend my days working on MVC based CMS systems, I literally spend all day writing re-usable components that can be placed anywhere on a page so when you tell me this can't be done or is too hard\too much work then I have to be honest and think the issues is that you just don't know MVC well enough or you are struggling to change your thought processes. One of the biggest problems when MVC came out is that everyone wanted to continue doing WebForms, but just using MVC. You can't do that, you have to change your mindset, your way of dealing with issues, solving problems and implementing solutions.
Steve Naidamast wrote: The idea that was promoted in one of the replies here that developers should have a greater understanding of how the Internet works in order to develop better applications is complete nonsense. That is not our job as software engineers and developers. Our job is to develop quality applications; not worry about what is going on underneath the hood as they say.
Wow.
"Why should I have to learn how the human body works to become a surgeon? That's not my job, my job is to simply take the old heart out and put this new one in."
Steve Naidamast wrote: I am finding that people who promote the ASP.NET MVC style of development appear not to have been exposed to its drastic limitations when under stress with the development large-scale, complex, database, intensive applications.
I've used MVC on database based systems, web API based systems, index based systems....you name it I've done it. There is nothing inherent in MVC that stops you working with these things, and again I find myself coming back to the feeling that you've gotten comfortable using asp:DataGrid to maintain a table or asp.net maintaining your state for you and you just don't want to give that way of coding up. Not all sites need that kind of functionality anyway, the majority don't, and the majority of database heavy sites still tend to be light on forms etc.
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First, you are not being asked to become a surgeon so your analogy is not very relevant.
Second, why should I have to bother writing HTML extensions when that is taking time away from my core development endeavor, which is completing an application?
And no, available HTML Helpers are not the equivalent of more feature rich server based components.
But you are correct about me not wanting to change my thought processes to understand and implement ASP.NET MVC applications. Been there, done that. Didn't like it and nor did I find it very efficient.
Your contention is that we have to completely upend our thinking in order to develop with ASP.NET MVC. Why? What is the purpose of having to go to a lower level of development, to do much more as a result, subsequently taking more time to do so. Doing this is certainly not providing any organization with any cost benefits in terms of development endeavors. Would you give up developing in C# or VB.NET to suddenly find you have to do everything in C++? Well, that is what is being more or less asked of web developers today.
CMS systems are not database intensive systems such as what is found in the financial industry where I worked for over 20 years in my career. You think that with brutal deadlines you are going to want to tinker with something like ASP.NET MVC when you need to get development done yesterday? I don't think so.
And your experience in no way outpaces mine as I have done as much if not more than you have across three distinct eras in the Information Technology profession.
The problem is that many developers who are detailed oriented seemed to have inherently gravitated to the ASP.NET MVC paradigm simply due its greater complexities. I can understand that as I watched one engineer develop an entire JavaScript Treeview control from scratch instead of using one of the available components. his reasoning was that he could do a better job than the components available at the time.
That was all well and good but doing what he did cost the project three weeks in time. And from what I have seen this appears to be perfectly acceptable to the ASP.NET MVC promoters. You admitted to some of this yourself. But that is not your job if you are a software engineer working to create line of business applications. Your job is to get the application completed as quickly and efficiently as possible most often within limited deadlines.
And maybe it is your thought processing that requires adjusting if you do not understand this...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: First, you are not being asked to become a surgeon so your analogy is not very relevant
"Why should I understand gravity, frictional forces, stress points of materials and so on to become a structural engineer? That's not my job, my job is just to build a bridge that can carry traffic."
Steve Naidamast wrote: Second, why should I have to bother writing HTML extensions when that is taking time away from my core development endeavor, which is completing an application?
Because often what you want to use isn't available off the shelf and you have to write it yourself. What's important is that if you have to, that you can.
Steve Naidamast wrote: Your contention is that we have to completely upend our thinking in order to develop with ASP.NET MVC. Why?
Because it's a different paradigm. WebForms is server-based, state-managed, event-driven so people think in terms of "when I do this thing code runs on the server and at that point I interrogate and update state and everything else happens by magic". With MVC you need to think more about the separation of your components, you then need to output html\views that model binding can convert to a view model in your controller, your controller then has to best decide what domain model needs interacted with, and your domain model needs to know how to update the state of your system (be that amending database tables or whatever else). So rather than having one component responsible for multiple things, you need to be more granular in your thinking, and this ultimately results in better, more reusable, and testable code. The trade-off is that it does indeed often need a little more effort. However if the speed of development is the only metric you are working off then fine, MVC probably isn't for you, but that's your experience and quite a narrow one. Most big projects have many more metrics than speed of development.
Steve Naidamast wrote: CMS systems are not database intensive systems such as what is found in the financial industry where I worked for over 20 years in my career
My point about CMS systems is that they involve a lot of re-usable components, the thing you say MVC struggles to do. I have also worked with more traditionally database-intensive systems, *and* API heavy CMS systems and web API systems. At no point has the infrastructure of MVC held me back in any way at all.
Steve Naidamast wrote: And your experience in no way outpaces mine as I have done as much if not more than you have across three distinct eras in the Information Technology profession.
It's not often I genuinely LOL Bless. With respect you know nothing about me or my experience. If what you are saying is valid I don't know why you can't let your points speak for themselves.
Steve Naidamast wrote: I can understand that as I watched one engineer develop an entire JavaScript Treeview control from scratch instead of using one of the available components
That's dumb, but nothing to do with MVC.
Anyway, from your reply I think I can see where you are coming from better. You seem very much focussed on projects that are very tight on time where speed of development is the only important factor, so what you are basically doing is trying to use technology to solve managerial problems rather than technical ones. Rather than re-thinking management to seek out and accept realistic deadlines that result in better, more manageable software that takes longer to produce, you are dealing with companies that don't really care or understand how software is made, they just want it done tomorrow. If that's your experience then I can understand why you prefer WebForms and might not like MVC so much. But please understand that your experience is not the industry norm and just because MVC isn't right for the companies and environments that you work in doesn't mean the technology itself is flawed....it just means it might not be right for you, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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I agree with your final comments as to what I experienced in my career in terms of the technical management I worked under in which practically all of these people were incompetent.
However, I worked in many companies and corporations both as consultant and an employee across a large spectrum of industries. So unless something miraculous has happened in the management suites of the United States, I really do not see what I experienced or that of many of my colleagues as no longer the norm considering I only retired in 2014.
Maybe you are privileged to work in a company or companies where quality software design takes precedence over deadlines and the like but I never have. And trying to change such technical management is a complete impossibility considering that most are arrogant, incompetents who do not see the need to go up against their own management. The fact that you suggested such a proposition demonstrates your lack of experience in the brutal, working world of Information Technology. Anyone who has had a wide breadth of industry experience under the belts would never say such a thing no matter how long they may have been a professional.
Aside from this it does not appear you have actually read what I have been saying but instead have looked to simply disagree with it.
I came up in the field when 4th generation development was a thing and ease-of-use was a primary motivation for Microsoft. When Java was introduced it was laughed at not only due to its massive complexity but the near impossibility of doing anything with it easily. Though this environment has gained a substantial foothold in our profession and it has come a long way, it still has many detractors for the original reasons. Should they change their thought processes also? The ASP.NET MVC environment and its subsequent add-on environments such as Blazor and Razor Pages to me, all appear to be nothing but added complexity for complexity's sake in what seems like an effort to mimic Java's original complexities. Our side of the profession is after all mimicking what Java web development always had, the MVC paradigm.
I don't doubt that ASP.NET MVC can be more efficient than WebForms but at what cost? Simply because you are doing well with it does not mean that everyone is. Currently there is a 72% job dissatisfaction rating in our profession according to one recent survey taken just a few months ago. And many current development professionals are not very happy with the current web development environments they are contending with. Should they also change their thought processes to accommodate yours or are they all wrong also.
I have also developed a wide variety of WebForms applications, all of which never gave my users any issues in terms of functionality or performance. As a result, I do not understand where you can assume that my development endeavors have been far more narrowly focused than your own. Like you are claiming, I have done it all and then some.
I just believe I have a much more realistic approach to my development efforts than you do. I really don't care how the Internet works. There is nothing I can do to make it better. I am just interested in how my software tools work with it.
But you seem to be centered on the tools you use and not the realities that surround their use in the real world. This is fairly common with the newer generations of technical professionals but based upon everything I have experienced and the reports that are appearing about modern web development it does not look like that these newer tools have done anything but creates new issues...
Mike Si, obviously a developer himself, who posted a very succinct answer on Quora in answer to the question as to why current web development is so complex had the following to say...
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A smart question and you are very right. Web development today is unnecessarily complex. Why?
Let me start by saying - Most coders (including me) today waste lot of their time on sites like Stackoverflow, looking for solutions and fixes; because open source software is generally horrible, has a long learning curve, and documentation is poor at best. So, coders are not coding much, but reading what other coders have to say! Now to the reasons why web development is complex:
Lot of coders wasting time, developing open source/free software. Few, if any, gain enough market share, leading to lot of ‘dead’, useless, buggy or poorly documented products; making web developers life difficult.
Many coders think they know better than others, and go on to create their own library or framework, thinking they will become legends. No, that never happens, but other naive coders trusting such coders, end up wasting time learning badly written code.
There are simply too many little products out there. Poorly developed products just linger on for years, trapping new coders. Too much choice of mediocre products is not good.
For all the above reasons, today, if you need to develop a web site, it is impossible to find a fully-featured/comprehensive paid product, which is well supported, is less buggy, is well documented, has a long enough lifespan; because no commercial business can sell such a product and make money - thanks to availability of many horrible/buggy free products, and the illusion that software should be free. Remember, companies need to employ people and pay salaries! Good products which can make you productive coders will never be free.
To create a web site one has to use many products and technologies, leading to confusion, fragmented teams, more bugs, performance and security issues. This also adds to the complexity.
So, thanks to the current mentality - “We will not pay for software, software should be free”, that we are in such a big mess.
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There are quite a number of people on the Internet who have posted similar complaints towards the current state of web development but I believe Mike says a lot in a nutshell...
Steve Naidamast
Sr. Software Engineer
Black Falcon Software, Inc.
blackfalconsoftware@outlook.com
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Steve Naidamast wrote: Maybe you are privileged to work in a company or companies where quality software design takes precedence over deadlines and the like but I never have
I've worked in all sorts...I've worked in places where time is everything, and I've worked in places where they just want the job done right, and everything in between. I guess that's just one of the pitfalls of my inexperience 
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