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Jeremy Falcon wrote: enterprise worthy website
I won't touch those, as you know.
I go with "enough until proved otherwise", but I don't use any testing frameworks, which is what you may be thinking.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: I won't touch those, as you know.
Not sure I follow, you won't touch an enterprise website or unit tests?
PIEBALDconsult wrote: I go with "enough until proved otherwise", but I don't use any testing frameworks, which is what you may be thinking.
That's why I limited the scope. Don't really need another "I don't like it because just don't like it but I can't admit that so I'll diss it" type posts. Just saying man, you'll never convince me unit testing isn't warranted in mission critical software. Some people will never do it because it takes more work and nothing I say is gonna make them change or put more effort into their work. Thus, the question was directed at those who do unit test.
Jeremy Falcon
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I unit and integration test etc., of course, but not with a testing framework.
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Well, sorry if I'm sounding jaded, but it's because I am. 
I've spent my life online arguing with peeps who do nothing but hate, argue, are just miserable, barely educated, arrogant, and have absolutely no experience with the topic being argued about, etc. Ironically, I've become miserable in the process of not liking miserable.
Not sure why you wouldn't use a framework though, but I'll just say cool so I'm not the antithesis of unit testing bashers.
Jeremy Falcon
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I can understand that. Though I've never heard of anyone recommending against using testing frameworks.
I've definitely seen some with the attitude that if you're not using a unit testing framework then you're not testing at all, and that is simply a ridiculous point of view.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: Though I've never heard of anyone recommending against using testing frameworks.
There have been peeps that have, right here on CP even. Seems silly IMO.
PIEBALDconsult wrote: I've definitely seen some with the attitude that if you're not using a unit testing framework then you're not testing at all, and that is simply a ridiculous point of view.
Well, I'm trying not to turn this into a debate. There's 90% chance any post on CP will be derailed and turned into the same debate we've always had for years. It's just a simple question I asked and yet here we are again in endless debates saying the same thing over and over. It's a waste of time and energy when all I'm trying to do is ask peeps a number.
I will say though, there are different levels of testing: unit, functional, integration, regression, user acceptance, etc. And most devs I've talked to that don't unit test don't know the difference. Which makes it hard to trust how much they really know about testing. But, so many of the devs who have no clue will all pretend they know, but those who do know... know who's faking it.
For integration and user acceptance, I'd almost say there's credence to your position for a personal project. But for unit and functional you cannot be repeatably deterministic or automate the ability of code breaking from a rogue commit without it. I'll save regressions for another day, but those need to be automated too. Maybe regressions are overkill for a personal project, but definitely not in the enterprise.
Clearly we'll have to disagree. I'm not gonna convince you of anything and vice versa. But, out of the two of us, it sounds like I'm the only one with experience on the topic. So, I'm politely saying you are missing out.
Jeremy Falcon
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Seems about right.
Never counted though, so I looked at a personal project of 100+ files: there are around 250 tests but most tests have multiple assertions, so I'd guess about 500 to 1000 conditions checked.
For me, the number of tests grows with time. Almost every bug turns into a test, first to identify it, than to make sure it's quashed.
Mircea
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Mircea Neacsu wrote: Never counted though, so I looked at a personal project of 100+ files: there are around 250 tests but most tests have multiple assertions, so I'd guess about 500 to 1000 conditions checked.
Oddly enough, despite me not being a math wizard, I'm a number's nerd. Gotta print them totals for the warm fuzzies. Glad to know my findings are on par with yours.
Mircea Neacsu wrote: For me, the number of tests grows with time. Almost every bug turns into a test, first to identify it, than to make sure it's quashed.
Tru dat man. Tru dat.
Jeremy Falcon
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I don't, and I'm very well aware that I should.
But, the company I work for is small enough and the software I work on is typically so small scale (relatively speaking) that my boss wouldn't want me to start spending time working on something that is "not code that we ship and will make us money" (and that's pretty much a direct quote). Unless I started to regularly write stuff that produces questionable results.
I'm not gonna pretend I'm all that and a bag of chips, but my boss and coworkers know that when I'm comfortable enough to say something's done (by my own yardstick), it's generally in pretty good shape and it's rare someone will find any sort of major hole I didn't think of. If I wasn't likely to think of some scenario my code should support, I wouldn't be likely to think about writing a unit test for it anyway. Having said that, I fully realize this is where regression testing would really help ensure I don't forget about something when refactoring week or months after I wrote the code originally.
I'm not trying to disagree. If I was working on mission-critical software at a large corporation, I would insist I get to do it. I was just never presented with the circumstances where I could justify the extra time to my boss. From my perspective, it only needs to happen once.
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Smaller companies generally don't have much leeway for anything. You might get more freedom at a company, in the sense there are no code reviews, etc. But, they don't have the money for much. That's the tradeoff.
What your boss is really saying is, he doesn't want you learning on the job because they don't want to pay for it. They don't know the value in something if you don't tell them. It's a small company - trust me... they don't know. If you learned something on your free time and came to him/her as an expert about the pros/cons it would be a different story.
I've been an employer, so I'm not making this up. Also, I've witnessed firsthand where stuff like this happened in a company where the CEO was worried about budget because this was their first time in the tech world (coming from cookie manufacturing).
And sure, lousy employers do exist. But, more times than not what is really going on is people lie about timelines and always take longer. Given that, some are tired of hearing anything that would cause more time. It's an endless cycle that never stops unless the devs start estimate honestly.
I could go on, but you get the idea. Nobody wants a worse product. Everyone loves initiative from learning something on your own time. It's an easy sell unless the company is almost broke. In which case, you should be looking for another job.
Jeremy Falcon
modified 3-Sep-24 14:45pm.
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We're totally on the same page.
My boss is already getting plenty of skillset from my part that I've learned on my own. I'm not gonna go out of my way to add to the pile with that one.
Besides, I suspect that with unit testing, the most significant time investment isn't going to be me learning it - it's going to be implementing (and then maintaining) them.
As for looking for another job - I like the one I have right now enough; for 17+ years I've had the perk of working from home 100% of the time. At this point I could be more easily talked into retirement than another job. 
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A couple of days ago RickZeeland was talking about Eggs Benedict, delicious!
But, so that we all have places to strive to visit when we are on holiday, where in the world is your all time favorite restaurant, and what is the dish that makes it all work?
Mine is Café de Klos in Amsterdam where they have been serving the best charcoal grilled, smokey bacon spareribs in the world since before 1979 (the first time I ever went there).
Andy
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The Big Baja Bucket for two at Rockin' Baja -- several locations in Southern California.
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Wow - amazing menu. Lobster heaven!
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Some years ago I visited Bruges and had one of the best dinners I can remember. Sadly the only thing I can remember about the restaurant is the Turbot I had for main course, and the fabulous coffee machine brought to the table after dinner.
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Hands down, Rendezvous (across the street from the Peabody) in Memphis, TN for BBQ/ribs. If you go, the cheesboard is a great starter.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
"Hope is contagious"
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Not a restaurant, but years ago I was very impressed by the quality of the fries of a chip shop in Stavelot (Belgium) and the beauty of the lady behind the counter 
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Mine is a Peruvian restaurant in Corning, CA. Unfortunately they are closed now. They made the best version of my favorite dish that I have ever had and I've had it at a lot of places. That dish is Lomo Saltado. I really like it with a blasting hot rocoto sauce. The dish has just a few very simple ingredients but when the sauce is made right they work together really well. Contrary to most recipes for it on the net, the key is to use no vinegar. That's how they made it in Corning and I asked them specifically about this because I have seen and had such a wide variation of tastes.
My other favorite place is Pappadeaux's. It's a chain of Cajun restaurants in the Southeast USA. I have been to about four of them in Dallas and Atlanta and I really like them. The last time I was there I had blackened rockfish and it was tremendous. Probably the best seafood I have ever had. At one of the thems in Atlanta they had a live band playing for people waiting to get in. It was pretty cool.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Rick York wrote: Pappadeaux's
There's one here in Phoenix, but I've never been there. I guess I'll have to remedy that.
P.S. My wife is gluten-free, so that's a major concern when selecting a restaurant. And our kid is meat-free.
modified 2-Sep-24 12:28pm.
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Pappadeaux's is excellent. Shrimp brochette: a skewer of grilled shrimps wrapped in bacon, cheese, and a slice of jalapeño. I also like their blackened soft-shell crabs. You don't have to order them blackened, but I don't care for them otherwise.
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Corning, CA is the olive capital of California.
I once had a humble pizza topped with tons of black olives at a local pizzeria. It had a newspaper column about once having baked a very, very, very large pizza. I can’t recall the name of the place.
Absolutely the best pizza I have had.
PS. I realize that a pizza is nothing compared to the fancy items you guys are talking about but still it remains the best pizza I have eaten.
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My selection is very limited due to the small town I live in Pinetop-Lakeside,AZ
When I moved here 24 years ago the first place I had breakfast was
https://darbiscafe.com/[^]
I met the owner a very energetic young lady YEP Darbi
Try this hospitality at any restaurant
The kid’s menu is for the young, and the young at heart
You’re always welcome to share a meal, and we’re happy to provide an extra plate
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Choroid wrote: Pinetop-Lakeside,AZ
We still haven't explored that area much, even after twenty years in the Phoenix area.
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We are spoiled up here in Montreal, as they say, the only place where you can eat French food in American quantities at Canadian prices.
Beside compulsory stops to Schwartz's - Wikipedia[^] or Fairmount Bagel - Wikipedia[^], eating at "Au Pied de Cochon" is always a nice experience.
Mircea
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