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Maybe they subtracted subtraction from elementary schools and added it to the high school syllabus.
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Thanks to YouTube et al., my children know far more math than I did at their age.
"In testa che avete, Signor di Ceprano?"
-- Rigoletto
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You don't need subtraction.
You just need to learn addition of negative numbers... 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
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The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
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Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
Mark Twain
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Not surprising, since the snowflakes avoid anything negative, whether it involves reality or not.
Will Rogers never met me.
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We are all snowflakes, hence the term.
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I searched the list of forums and didn't see anything about this
I searched this Lounge for matching terms and didn't see anything
Duh. Somebody with a better brain, Please show me how to phrase the question.
I want to build myself a regular x86 machine...
- processor
- motherboard
- memory
- video card
- sound card
- Internet card
- USB stuff
- Power Supply
- Case
...And whatever
I want to be able to run Windows or maybe Linux and of course my own great operating system which I will write; oh, when I get a weekend And I'm bored.
I was certain that this is a very commonly discussed topic.
Do we have a discussion group here on this site dedicated toward building your own Clone ?
I am highly confident that I have participated in similar conversations like this in the past, in this very forum, Yet today when I search for those older conversations, I can't find them.
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Clone of My Own (Song Parody)
Possibly NSFW, and will cause pearl-clutching by any maiden aunts you may have.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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C-P-User-3 wrote: I want to build myself a regular x86 machine...
processor
Well, you sure you want x86? These days it's 64-bit... a la x64. x86 implies 32-bit these days (not always the case but times change).
C-P-User-3 wrote: And whatever
Your sound card, unless you need something special, will be a part of the motherboard most likely. Same goes for the "Internet card" and USB stuff.
Anywho, there's a Hardware & Devices Discussion Board which may be better suited for this.
Jeremy Falcon
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"...Well, you sure you want x86? These days it's 64-bit... a la x64. x86 implies 32-bit these days (not always the case but times change)..."
Oops
My vernacular lags behind all these young swinging hippies of today.
Thank you for the vocabulary pointer.
Now folks will think that I'm Hi-Tech and I'll be a hit with the young'uns
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C-P-User-3 wrote: ...And whatever
Like an SSD ?
First start with your budget. How big is it, what can you afford to spend, and what do you want to spend? Are you hoping to play games? Gaming rigs start to get expensive.
Having a budget in mind, start by researching processors. Depending on your wants and needs you may want a higher-end Intel or AMD CPU. If you're not looking for exceptional game performance, you might want to look into a CPU with integrated graphics. That will probably be cheaper than a discreet GPU, and you can always add a GPU later if you need to. Once you've got your CPU choice down, then you can start looking into motherboards. Most motherboards these days provide sound, network and USB, so you should be able to tick those off in one purchase. If you have integrated graphics, you'll want to make sure that the MoBo has integrated video. Usually this will be HDMI, but you might find DisplayPort available too. Having chosen the MoBo, then you can narrow down RAM. To run Windows 11 you'll need at least 4GB, but better 8, 16 or more. Most MoBo's also support Nvme drives (looks like a stick of gum). For a dual boot windows/linux system, you probably want at least 1TB drive, but you could save a bit by choosing a smaller Nvme drive to host the OS and then use a SATA SDD for data. Powersupply will depend on the above choices. If you google around you can probably find some web sites that will tell you how much power you need to run your choice of CPU/GPU/MoBo/drives, etc. Case choice will come down to cooling and "cool" factors like RGB displays, etc. Many cases come with sufficient fans for generic consumer use. If you're going to be high-end, you might need more fans. Which reminds me, don't forget the CPU cooler. Some CPU's come with a fan already attached. Again, this should be sufficient for most users, but if you're high end, you may want to look into liquid coolers. If you've decided to go with a discreet GPU, then your intended use should guide your choice. If you're not gaming, almost any mid-range GPU should be sufficient. Even if you want to game, you should find that most mid-range GPU's are suffiient, unless you're dead set on high framerates at high resolutions. If you have a favorite game, or are thinking about purchasing a new game, you should check requirements before finalizing the GPU choice
You might do well to visit some of the more well known hardware sites. Many, have a build-your-own section, that allows you to choose the specific CPU that you want, add mother boards, etc. That's a big help, since they normally will filter successive choices, so you don't end up buying an AMD CPU and an Intel MotherBoard. For a small fee(relative to the cost of the hardware), they will put it all together and bench test it before shipping, which might be worth it, too.
If you know what you want to spend, you might also go to somewhere like Dell and see what you can get for the money. I've heard good and bad experiences from Dell. Other manufacturers are probably similar. Some will swear by them and other will swear at them. The upside of a pre-built system is that someone else has done all the integration for you. You should get a system that has the right PSU for the system, plus integration will already have been done, and usually you will get a new version of Windows already installed, and ready to go. Whether that is a good thing or not I leave up to you to decide 
Keep Calm and Carry On
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"...Like an SSD ?..."
I'm currently having my own conversation with myself about what kind of storage will be used
I probably do want at least one SSD inside the case
It looks like internal real estate will limit my internal storage
Honestly I like external Disk drives with a USB interface
I have learned my lesson about backups
My new mantra is: redundancy
i.e., "A backup" is not sufficient. Multiple backups Are the only way to go.
The plan that is currently first place in my frontal lobe is...
- Today's, Yesterday's, etc. for the rest of the week
- This week's, Last week's; On some sort of rotating system
- This month's, Last month's; Again on some sort of rotating system
"...First start with your budget. How big is it, what can you afford to spend, and what do you want to spend? Are you hoping to play games? Gaming rigs start to get expensive..."
My first Brief reconnaissance gives me a thumbnail guess of somewhere between $4,000 and $7,000
And that's a guess
I truly have no interest in games especially those that use the super duper fancy Graphics to Razzle Dazzle And Exercise the display to its maximum capacity.
The one most compelling goal that I have is: Video Creation and Editing.
"...Having a budget in mind, start by researching processors. Depending on your wants and needs you may want a higher-end Intel or AMD CPU..."
At this moment the most bang for the buck appears to be...
- AMD Ryzen Threadripper 3960X
- 3rd Gen
- 24-Core
- 3.8 GHz
- Socket sTRX4
- 280W Desktop Processor
"...If you're not looking for exceptional game performance, you might want to look into a CPU with integrated graphics..."
Looks like a graphics card is going to be the reality here. From looking around, It is clear and evident that I have some research and education to accomplish.
"...Once you've got your CPU choice down, then you can start looking into motherboards..."
FrontRunner at the moment appears to be MSI, however, That was based on the Newegg PC Builder. That was one of the motherboards that they have for sale that matches that CPU.
I looked at the MSI site and was wondering if anybody else sold that motherboard. They list about I don't know how many Distributors. I clicked on 16 of those that they've listed. Not a one of them had any TRX40 motherboards listed on their site.
"...Most motherboards these days provide sound, network and USB, so you should be able to tick those off in one purchase..."
That Sparks a good question: Do I need a separate sound card if I'm going to be creating videos ?
"...If you have integrated graphics, you'll want to make sure that the MoBo has integrated video..."
Duh
A separate video card is looking like the way to go right now
"...Usually this will be HDMI, but you might find DisplayPort available too..."
Duh
More reasons to use a separate graphics card. I think I'm going to need three monitors. Two for sure, but I'm wondering if three would be too many; could be more bang than I need; I can see a third monitor becoming too confusing; not to mention taking up space on the desk in front of me (which was, really, designed for one screen and one keyboard).
"...Having chosen the MoBo, then you can narrow down RAM..."
"...To run Windows 11 you'll need at least 4GB, but better 8, 16 or more..."
I'm currently trying to get 256GB. Apparently, with that constraint, I have about 5 or 10 choices in motherboards
"...For a dual boot windows/linux system..."
I have thought it over a couple of times, and I now feel that that isn't truly palatable at the moment. just going to have a Windows system. I'm not ready to embark on a Ph.D. in Information Technology (which is required for that kind of arrangement). I really have No idea as to what put such thoughts in my mind.
"...Powersupply will depend on the above choices. If you google around you can probably find some web sites that will tell you how much power you need to run your choice of CPU/GPU/MoBo/drives, etc..."
Both Newegg and PC part picker have a calculator for that. For the moment, I'm just trusting them.
"...Case choice will come down to cooling and "cool" factors like RGB displays, etc. Many cases come with sufficient fans for generic consumer use..."
There's an interesting conversation going on in my mind with myself at this moment on this very topic. Part of me says that these fans that have RGB Blades Are the stupidest most idiotic worthless expense of money that could be ever Implemented by any rational thinking adult. The other part of me says, "Wow, that would be so cool !"
"...If you're going to be high-end, you might need more fans..."
I'm already making the assumption That I am going to get a case that has the most fans that I can install and just have a noisy machine.
"...Which reminds me, don't forget the CPU cooler. Some CPU's come with a fan already attached. Again, this should be sufficient for most users, but if you're high end, you may want to look into liquid coolers..."
The CPU will be air-cooled. And yes I'll need a Cooler of some sort
"...If you're not gaming, almost any mid-range GPU should be sufficient. Even if you want to game, you should find that most mid-range GPU's are suffiient, unless you're dead set on high framerates at high resolutions..."
Nope, No games, This will be used for creating and editing video.
"...You might do well to visit some of the more well known hardware sites. Many, have a build-your-own section, that allows you to choose the specific CPU that you want, add mother boards, etc. That's a big help, since they normally will filter successive choices, so you don't end up buying an AMD CPU and an Intel MotherBoard..."
Yes, currently looking at the Newegg site and PC part picker.
I remain open to other suggestions as well.
So far Newegg appears to be the one where the kids did the most homework so that the customer has the easiest time.
"...For a small fee(relative to the cost of the hardware), they will put it all together and bench test it before shipping, which might be worth it, too..."
And there is another conversation that I'm having in my own mind. Half of me says go ahead and spend a hundred bucks and let professionals do what they know how to do best. The other half of me says a significant aspect of this is going to be my own personal learning, and another aspect as well will be my own personal satisfaction, and there is the highly intangible, but clearly present, factor of actually understanding the physical parts that are inside that box, which realistically only happens if you are the one who put it all together.
Can't really say which is the smarter way to go.
"...If you know what you want to spend, you might also go to somewhere like Dell and see what you can get for the money..."
No.
"...and usually you will get a new version of Windows already installed..."
That is probably the prime reason that I want to build the thing myself. I am not aware of any way to get a real honest clean copy of Windows[TM] outside of spending gobs of money and putting it on the machine yourself. I have not yet purchased one single pre-built computer which does not have a host of crapware riding on the disk and who knows where else.
modified 15-Aug-23 9:24am.
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Newegg.com has a "you-build-it" wizard that might help.
And unless you're building a killer gaming PC you can use the video, sound, USB and ethernet stuff that's built into the motherboard.
You just need a case (often comes with a power supply), motherboard, CPU, and memory.
There are no solutions, only trade-offs. - Thomas Sowell
A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
- Calvin (Bill Watterson, Calvin & Hobbes)
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"...Newegg.com has a "you-build-it" wizard that might help...
Been there done that and I continue to return. I do believe they have the best one on the internet that I've seen so far.
I welcome suggestions from anybody who might know a better one.
"...And unless you're building a killer gaming PC you can use the video, sound, USB and ethernet stuff that's built into the motherboard..."
This one is going to be used for video creation and editing.
My quite limited experience tells me that the world of video has a bunch of software writers who believe that both memory and processor speed as well as everything else in the world, Are all infinite with no limits ever
"...You just need a case (often comes with a power supply), motherboard, CPU, and memory..."
Most of the time that's true.
Looks like this one is going to be expensive and involved and honestly something I want to build myself and not try to finish in a day.
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I've been building my own PCs for nearly 30 years, until this year. A few months ago the CPU fan started making a lot of racket on my 13 year-old machine, and since it would have been hard to find a replacement, and the CPU didn't meet Win 11's requirements, I started looking at NewEgg and other places and pricing things. Turns out I could buy a brand new Dell with everything I needed for about 2/3 what it would have cost me to build it myself. I do my music recording on my Mac now so I don't need a powerhouse (though I still bought one with an i7 and 16 GB memory, you never know what I might need it for some day) so buying the Dell made sense.
There are no solutions, only trade-offs. - Thomas Sowell
A day can really slip by when you're deliberately avoiding what you're supposed to do.
- Calvin (Bill Watterson, Calvin & Hobbes)
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Your item list seems in logical order.
I have built numerous systems from the ground up,
but gave that up in favor of buying a built system using your list as a shopping list.
I got lazy and lost interest. It became somewhat repetitive.
"A little time, a little trouble, your better day"
Badfinger
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search more ... CP has this type of content
«The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled» Plutarch
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Try pcpartpicker.com. They have recommended builds that list suitable compatible components. It seems to be very game based but if that's not what you want their basic builds are based on cpus with an igpu. It's regional, so you'll get the local prices for each part.
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I forgot to say, check the motherboard specs to see what features are included - a basic motherboard will have some of these outputs: ethernet 1 GHz, wi-fi, sound. You might have to go up a price bracket to get them all. Storage: check that number of SATA ports match what you want and have a look at m.2 nvme for fast storage for the OS.
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m.2 nvme seconded. The motherboards which support it might (or might not) be a jump in price, but it's so good and so much easier than SATA cables.
You probably? want to be sure the board you get supports USB C just so you don't kick yourself in a year when you want to plug in something USB C without futzing with a converter.
You'll most likely want a 32 GB+ USB thumb stick or two. You'll drop install files onto them ahead of time, mainly windows and motherboard drivers and maybe the latest BIOS to flash for whatever board you get. For windows, MSFT has a program which will create installation media for you.
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Compare CPUs -- the newest and fastest are not necessarily necessary, and you can get a better deal on 1 rev back. Read gaming PC blogs to get advice on which to buy.
Don't go with less than 16 GB RAM. Windows and applications are always eating more RAM, and save yourself a future upgrade if you start with more RAM.
Make sure the MOBO supports the USB connections you need. USB is horribly confusing -- USB 3.0, 3.1 Gen 1, and 3.2 Gen 1 are functionally identical -- they support 5 Gbps with Type-A, Type-C, Type-B, and Micro connectors.
USB 3.1 Gen 2 and 3.2 Gen 2 are functionally identical -- they support 10 Gbps with Type-A and Type-C connectors. The "Gen" is what matters, not the version #.
My MOBO supports USB 2, which is actually useful as many things do not need the speed of newer USB versions, things such as wireless kbd/mouse dongles. However ... my CASE doesn't have USB 2 ports on the front.
I spent a lot of time picking a case (more than any other component) but missed that point, so I have the two USB 2 ports on the back of the case. I'd like two on the front, but that's a nope.
Video? I found that having a dedicated GPU, even a lower end one, makes a difference in overall system speed. Onboard video typically uses some of the total RAM, and you get better performance with a dedicated GPU. Note that this can easily be the most expensive component.
Lastly, power supply. Several online sellers have power calculators. Modern components draw a lot more power -- use a calculator, add at least 100 W to the figure, and then buy the next unit above that.
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"...Compare CPUs -- the newest and fastest are not necessarily necessary, and you can get a better deal on 1 rev back..."
The single most important purpose of this computer will be creation and editing of Video.
My initial thinking is that I should get an AMD Threadripper with 24 cores
Your thinking may be superior to mine.
"...Don't go with less than 16 GB RAM. Windows and applications are always eating more RAM, and save yourself a future upgrade if you start with more RAM..."
My thinking exactly. I'm shooting for 256 GB. From the looks of things, And the reality of money, I'm going to have to reduce my expectations and dreams, And settle for 128 GB. The current motherboard market is the source of this disappointment.
Looks like there are about 5 or 10 great motherboards out there with enough space for that kind of RAM.
The first problem is their price.
The second problem is: Who sells them ? Their makers have gorgeous photographs of them on their websites. The distributors also have great photographs with this phrase underneath them: "...Out Of Stock..."
"...Make sure the MOBO supports the USB connections you need. USB is horribly confusing..."
YIKES ! Thanks for that warning. I was clueless. Guess I will be learning a few things here.
"...I spent a lot of time picking a case (more than any other component) but missed that point, so I have the two USB 2 ports on the back of the case. I'd like two on the front, but that's a nope...."
Interesting concept and difference in Attitudes and stuff; In my case I don't want any USB things on the front because that is nothing but an invitation to Junky, Cluttered, Disorderly space in front of my face which just does things to me psychologically.
One of my ideas is to get a couple of USB hubs off of eBay and have all those wires organized at the back of the table with some type of wiring underneath the surface of the desktop.
USB front ports mean: Wires, Wires, and More Wires; A quiet source of constant distraction and a reminder of Disorganization
That's just my feeble brain.
I'm not really clear on exactly how I'm going to handle this at this time.
For the moment that's definitely something for me to think about and plan.
"...Video? I found that having a dedicated GPU, even a lower end one, makes a difference in overall system speed. Onboard video typically uses some of the total RAM, and you get better performance with a dedicated GPU. Note that this can easily be the most expensive component..."
Thanks; for real. This is exactly the kind of advice that I really need right now, It helps to confirm my Gut feeling that I need a separate card, dedicated for this purpose, and keep that stuff out of the CPU and motherboard.
"...Lastly, power supply. Several online sellers have power calculators. Modern components draw a lot more power -- use a calculator, add at least 100 W to the figure, and then buy the next unit above that..."
Makes sense.
Thank you.
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C-P-User-3 wrote: USB front ports mean: Wires, Wires, and More Wires; A quiet source of constant distraction and a reminder of Disorganization
Other than a USB-3 hub, I don't keep anything plugged into the front. However, it's handy to have USB ports on the front of the case so I don't have to crawl under the desk to plug in temporary external devices.
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I gave up on CMSIS. I need to support different chips, and be able to change the chips i support rapidly to keep up with sourcing concerns. I need a HAL that a bunch of other maintain. I can't do it myself.
Cube is a non-starter. Their app doesn't even work right for me, since the screen doesn't repaint properly 80% of the time. Sometimes when I get lucky and launch the app it behaves for awhile before becoming almost unusable.
And that's still forcing me to deal in visual nonsense.
Enter ZephyrOS. This is a great project for embedded. The problem is that they stopped supporting PlatformIO so poof - there goes my smooth and easy workflow.
Oh well. I can use west from the command line and manually edit my .cpp_properties file to put in the zephyr include directories and use the ARM compilers.
But then there's "devicetree"
Holy socks, Batman! It's got its own syntax, and you use it to map pin assignments and devices for your board(s), and perhaps include more driver modules (I'm not sure about that last bit - still learning) etc.
It could probably stand a book or two.
Coding against it is easy enough, but configuring it is a real chore.
I've been trying to use the nRF VS Code extension to build devicetree files but i think it's Nordic Semiconductor specific. *sadface*
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
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I am a long-time Chrome user. We use generated HTML documents for a lot of things in our products. Microsoft's incessant pushing of Edge pisses me off, especially when they constantly reset my file associations for HTML files to point to it. I know my prejudice doesn't have a sound technical basis.
I may have to finally surrender  . I create the system images we install on the industrial PC's we use in our products. The Microsoft Update Catalog[^] site will not download files using Chrome, so I've learned to use Edge for that. I'm getting ready to create a Windows 11 image for a new model of PC, and come to find out that their site for downloading the image bits and pieces doesn't work with Chrome either.
This tit-for-tat sh*t isn't necessary  .
Software Zen: delete this;
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